This hasn't been asserted. What's been asserted is that Christ's death is necessary in order to enable *God* to be able to forgive, not that we don't need Christ's death in order to be forgiven. I've quoted the following many times:



We may disagree regarding certain things, but at least we can be clear about what it is we're disagreeing about!



Regarding the second question, because there are those of us who think this presents a false picture of God's character. Isn't is possible that God already had the privilege to forgive sins without setting aside His law?

Where does the law say that God cannot forgive sins unless Christ died? How do we explain God's willingness to forgive Lucifer's sins without Christ's dying? How do we explain Christ's forgiving people's sins without someone dying to enable Him to be able to do so?

Another difficulty some see that this question brings us is obscuring the real issue at hand. A point from the Christus Victor article I found very interesting is that Psalm 110 is the most frequently quoted passage in the New Testament. Psalm 110:1 is quoted 14 times! It's the most frequently quoted verse in the New Testament, yet I've never heard a sermon on it. When Peter preached his famous sermon in Acts, he said:



This is the Gospel, yet we rarely hear it.

Sssooooooo, we need Christ's death to be persuaded of God's love so that we would want to repent, but God doesn't need a blood sacrifice to uphold the standard of his holy law, which has been broken? So there's no legal problem here, just a perception problem re God being love, an,d that being solved, forgiveness is finally requestable???

What of the holy and just and good and right law of God???

It's been broken, and it's synonymous with his character, but he can forgive breeches of his character by his people on earth or his angels in heaven because he's really kind and loving??! Why is that not a setting aside of his law, for you?!

I'd call that a perception problem: you don't see God being holy & just & good! God can forgive sins against him because, despite sin being condemned by his law, there's no legal issue for him - but there is for us? But..., what of law enforcement..., for him???

And, before you bring up Lucifer, as if he deserves any attention!!...And, if God doesn't enforce the penalty of his law against sinners, but draws them back should they agree that he is love - by his own utterly gruesome voluntary display of love against evil, isn't he a worthless king and ruler of his own kingdom and we as free to sin as those select angels who are beyond saving now?

Of what value is any law of his??????????? There's no rule of law, here!!!.....

I'll leave that there for the moment..., but:

WHO AND WHAT IS MICHAEL, AND WHY?

That's a question you have to answer to hold on or not hold on to your case for Lucifer.

The law is like an mri that scans us to see how far we are from the mark.

The following is a long quote from Dr. Tim Jennings' blog at comeandreason.com. What do you think of this Colin?

"My emphasis is to point out that the law upon which God’s government is built, which was broken by angels in heaven, which Adam and Eve violated in Eden and which, when broken, results in death (unless remedied) is the law of love. And from this law God crafted the 10 Commandments as a distillation of the law of love uniquely designed for humans on earth. God provided the 10 Commandments as a diagnostic instrument to expose our sinful hearts and terminal condition and as a hedge of protection to prevent self-destruction. Such a “tool” was not needed prior to sin, thus my point was the 10 Commandments, as written on stone, were not always in existence, but the Law of Love, upon which the 10 Commandments are based was, and always will be, in existence because it emanates from God who is love. And the law of love is the basis for all life and all creation. Evidence for this position includes:

The eternal law of God is love:

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. James 2:8
The 10 Commandments are a diagnostic instrument and only intended for those who are sick in sin and were added after the fall:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 3:20
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Romans 5:12,13
The law was given sometime after Adam sinned, yet Adam broke the law – what does this mean? Adam broke the law of love and later, because of mankind’s need, God distilled down the law of love into 10 Commandments to help diagnose how sick in sin we are.
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come… So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:19, 24
What law was added? All written law but especially the 10 Commandment moral law.
“I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments.” {1SM 233.1}
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. 1Timothy 1:9-11
The law is not for the righteous, why? Because the righteous have accepted their sick condition, opened their heart to Christ and the law of love is written on the heart (Heb 8:10). The righteous, in their humble dependence upon Christ, are spiritually healthy and no longer need the 10 Commandments to diagnose sinfulness in them, but the wicked need the law to diagnose their terminal condition and convict them of the need for Christ to heal them.
Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. James 1:23-25
In summary, God is love. From God emanates the Law of Love which is the principle of other centered giving and beneficence upon which all life is constructed to operate. Prior to sin there was no need for a written law to diagnose or expose where the law of love was broken. After sin God wrote the 10 Commandments as a tool to expose in humanity our defective hearts and minds, how out of harmony with the Law of Love we are. When the Law of Love is again perfectly written in our hearts and minds (Heb 8:10) the 10 Commandments will no longer be needed, not because they are invalidated, but because there will be no further sinfulness for the 10 Commandments to diagnose."

Regarding the Sacrifice of Christ upholding God's law, I've quoted from Fifield regarding this many, many times. I'm pointing this out because it's not as if this point hasn't been raised and responded to before.

It's unlikely that we are going to come to a meeting of the minds here, but we can try to better understand the positions of the ones with which we disagree, and learn more as we study together. The reason I'm quoting Fifield is because I agree with what he said, and his explanation is much clearer than one I could write off the top of my head.

So I invite a careful reading of what Fifield wrote, and I'd be happy to explore his thoughts further. Since this is a long quote, I'll cite it without the "box," because I think it's easier to read this way. The rest of this post is from Fififeld's chapter "Christ's Sacrifice Honors God's Law" from his book "God is Love." (The whole chapter is fantastic, which I'd be happy to post, if anyone is interested).


Paul says of Christ: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence.” This plainly shows that God’s love and favor, had God been unwise, might have abounded toward us in an imprudent way; but through Jesus they were so prudently manifest that the sinner may have pardon and peace, and yet not be led thereby to regard sin lightly; yea, more, he may have pardon and peace, and yet the law be so exalted and magnified that multitudes will be led back to their allegiance.

If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love....

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sens his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor. In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another.

Sorry, Colin. I should have responded to your Michael question before. Michael is Jesus Christ, of course. This is well know by SDA's. I don't know what your point is, however.

The reason I bring up Lucifer is because if the argument is going to be made that Ellen White is making the point that Christ had to die in order to legal pardon man, then that same logic would apply to Lucifer's case. Christ should have had to die in order for God to offer him pardon as well. But that isn't what happened. God went ahead and offered him pardon, again and again. Why did He do so for Lucifer, but not for man? From the following we can understand why:



If one wishes to discuss this question solely from Scripture, I'm happy to do so. I would first of all assert that we should be able to substantiate our beliefs as Christians by the teachings of Christ, and ask where in Christ's life or teaching we find the ideas espoused by the penal substitution theory.

If one wishes to bring the SOP into the discussion, then it seems to me the case of Lucifer shows that the SOP clearly demonstrates that God, as far as His own person is concerned (apart from our needs) was fully able to pardon on His own accord, without Christ's having to die to enable Him to be able to do so.

I liked Tim's ideas a lot. I reformatted the post to make it easier to read. It's the next post, right after this one.

My emphasis is to point out that the law upon which God’s government is built, which was broken by angels in heaven, which Adam and Eve violated in Eden and which, when broken, results in death (unless remedied) is the law of love. And from this law God crafted the 10 Commandments as a distillation of the law of love uniquely designed for humans on earth.

God provided the 10 Commandments as a diagnostic instrument to expose our sinful hearts and terminal condition and as a hedge of protection to prevent self-destruction. Such a “tool” was not needed prior to sin, thus my point was the 10 Commandments, as written on stone, were not always in existence, but the Law of Love, upon which the 10 Commandments are based was, and always will be, in existence because it emanates from God who is love. And the law of love is the basis for all life and all creation. Evidence for this position includes:

The eternal law of God is love:

Jesus replied:



Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10

The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. James 2:8

The 10 Commandments are a diagnostic instrument and only intended for those who are sick in sin and were added after the fall:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 3:20

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Romans 5:12,13

The law was given sometime after Adam sinned, yet Adam broke the law – what does this mean? Adam broke the law of love and later, because of mankind’s need, God distilled down the law of love into 10 Commandments to help diagnose how sick in sin we are.
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come… So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:19, 24

What law was added? All written law but especially the 10 Commandment moral law.



We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. 1Timothy 1:9-11

The law is not for the righteous, why? Because the righteous have accepted their sick condition, opened their heart to Christ and the law of love is written on the heart (Heb 8:10). The righteous, in their humble dependence upon Christ, are spiritually healthy and no longer need the 10 Commandments to diagnose sinfulness in them, but the wicked need the law to diagnose their terminal condition and convict them of the need for Christ to heal them.

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. James 1:23-25

In summary, God is love. From God emanates the Law of Love which is the principle of other centered giving and beneficence upon which all life is constructed to operate. Prior to sin there was no need for a written law to diagnose or expose where the law of love was broken. After sin God wrote the 10 Commandments as a tool to expose in humanity our defective hearts and minds, how out of harmony with the Law of Love we are. When the Law of Love is again perfectly written in our hearts and minds (Heb 8:10) the 10 Commandments will no longer be needed, not because they are invalidated, but because there will be no further sinfulness for the 10 Commandments to diagnose.

I suppose it's possible, but I can't think of any. What do you have in mind?

Let's do this as a binary tree, to see if that makes it easier to analyze.

Eating the fruit was either fatal or it was not. The Bible says it was.

The deadliness of eating the fruit was either inherent in the fruit, or it came from an external source. IOW, the fruit itself was deadly if eaten, or something made it deadly to eat. That matches option "a" on your list.

If the fruit itself was harmless, then the death came from an external source. (And let's clarify now that I am talking about eternal death, not just the temporary sleep of physical death.) The choice we have now is this: The external source that made eating the fruit deadly was either God or something else.

Of all the sources of death in the universe, who but God can pronounce eternal death? Some might kill the body, but only God can destroy both body and soul.

Anyway, if the fruit itself was deadly, God's gonna take the heat for that because He made the fruit.

So, maybe we should revisit an old topic of ours: If God did not tell Adam that eating the fruit would cause death, would eating the fruit have been fatal?

Yes, I can think of something else.

The fruit was not theirs to eat, but God's. God told them not to eat it, because it wasn't theirs, and eating it would be stealing, which is breaking the law. Breaking the law results in death, not because God does something arbitrary (i.e. imposed) to kill people who disobey Him (i.e., it's not a capital offense, as in our justice system) but because it is contrary to the law of life for the universe, which is self-sacrificing love. By taking something which wasn't theirs, they were acting according to the law of selfishness, which is the law of death, not because God kills people who choose to live selfishly, because because selfishness cannot support life.

Since God loved them, and didn't want them to die, He warned them, "Don't eat of this fruit, lest you die."

Yes, but what is Michael? Yes, I'm after basic facts, here.