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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Daryl] #114208
06/06/09 01:12 AM
06/06/09 01:12 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
Please limit your discussion to the title/topic of this thread.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Daryl] #114219
06/06/09 07:25 AM
06/06/09 07:25 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Several Bible texts have already been presented in this thread which demonstrate Jesus as "the resurrection and the life," and it is my belief that Jesus did indeed fulfill His word to the Jews that said "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." As to those texts which say God raised Jesus up, we must not forget that Jesus is God. Those texts are true. And it might even go a step further, for Jesus Himself has said that the things He did were in obedience to the Father. Perhaps the Father told Jesus when to rise.

Divinity is immortal. Jesus' divinity never died. Only His humanity died.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
"I am the resurrection, and the life." He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in himself. Humanity died; divinity did not die. In his divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that he has life in himself to quicken whom he will. {YI, January 3, 1905 par. 1} [The Youth's Instructor ]

The following quote from Mrs. White clarifies the state of Christ's divine nature while on earth:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the gospel the character of Christ is portrayed. As He descended step by step from His throne, His divinity was veiled in humanity; but in His miracles, His doctrines, His sufferings, His betrayal, His mockery, His trial, His death by crucifixion, His grave among the rich, His resurrection, His 40 days upon earth, His ascension, His triumph, His priesthood, are inexhaustible treasures of wisdom, recorded for us by inspiration in the Word of God. The waters of life still flow in abundant streams of salvation. The mysteries of redemption, the blending of the divine and the human in Christ, His incarnation, sacrifice, mediation will be sufficient to supply minds, hearts, tongues, and pens with themes for thought and expression for all time; and time will not be sufficient to exhaust the wonders of salvation, but through everlasting ages, Christ will be the science and the song of the redeemed soul. New developments of the perfection and glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ will be forever unfolding. And now there must be perfect reliance upon His merit and grace; there must be distrust of self, and living faith in Him (Signs of the Times, Nov. 24, 1890).

In other words, this theme will be an endless, inexhaustible one which we will continue to study through eternity. As such, I hope we can be patient in realizing that we may not understand it all right now. Here is another statement from Mrs. White about Christ's divinity:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Nearly two thousand years ago, a voice of mysterious import was heard in heaven, from the throne of God, "Lo, I come." "Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me. . . . Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God." Heb. 10:5-7. In these words is announced the fulfillment of the purpose that had been hidden from eternal ages. Christ was about to visit our world, and to become incarnate. He says, "A body hast Thou prepared Me." Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form. {DA 23.1} [The Desire of Ages (1898)]

It is amazing that Christ would be willing to do this for us. That He would leave His position of King of the Universe, to be our lowly Servant! and with all of His more noble, sinless subjects looking on! Amazing love. He did it only for the love He had toward us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Green Cochoa] #114257
06/07/09 12:59 AM
06/07/09 12:59 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Oh, the enduring wonder of the Incarnation: we cannot fathom that act of the Father as his Word became flesh, let alone how it happened!

As for God raising Jesus up from the dead: yes, course Jesus is divine, but he lived and died as a human, and was raised as a glorified human, wasn't he, so the Father raised him up from the dead. His divinity was hidden in his humanity: the Son of God personally died, but his divinity could not, yet personally he died as a man.

Yes, deity has the power to raise he dead to life, but Jesus was a dead man as God, so his Father had to call him back to life.

Jesus obedience to his Father dates back to "the days of eternity", and this would be no different. Also being begotten at his resurrection wasn't the only time Scripture allows for or alludes to that happening, so the Father "raising him up again" can be seen in that light, too, not so.

Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Colin] #114259
06/07/09 01:36 AM
06/07/09 01:36 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
The following three quotes are all from the Desire of Ages. Mrs. White affirms that while the Father sent a message to Jesus via an angel, calling to Jesus, it was Jesus who raised Himself (divinity raising humanity, for divinity did not die).
  • Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in Me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life. {DA 530.3}
  • When the voice of the mighty angel was heard at Christ's tomb, saying, Thy Father calls Thee, the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, "I lay down My life, that I might take it again. . . . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 10:17, 18; 2:19. {DA 785.2}
  • To the believer, Christ is the resurrection and the life. In our Saviour the life that was lost through sin is restored; for He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. He is invested with the right to give immortality. The life that He laid down in humanity, He takes up again, and gives to humanity. "I am come," He said, "that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 10:10; 4:14; 6:54. {DA 786.4}

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Green Cochoa] #114269
06/07/09 02:01 AM
06/07/09 02:01 AM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Hi Green,

Well there's over 30 Bible texts that affirms that the Father raised Jesus. I highlited the ones that says that the Father raised Jesus AGAIN. :
Quote:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2Cr 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #114270
06/07/09 02:03 AM
06/07/09 02:03 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Elle,

Do you not view Jesus as God?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Colin] #114276
06/07/09 02:20 AM
06/07/09 02:20 AM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Colin
Yes, deity has the power to raise he dead to life, but Jesus was a dead man as God, so his Father had to call him back to life.

Jesus obedience to his Father dates back to "the days of eternity", and this would be no different. Also being begotten at his resurrection wasn't the only time Scripture allows for or alludes to that happening, so the Father "raising him up again" can be seen in that light, too, not so.

Actually, I was thinking about this today, wondering what "raising Jesus up again" meant. So Jesus was in obedience to HIs Father back to days of eternity. Where in the Bible does it say that Colin ?

Is it this passage?
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (Proverbs 8:22, KJV)


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Green Cochoa] #114278
06/07/09 02:22 AM
06/07/09 02:22 AM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Elle,

Do you not view Jesus as God?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Green, these text clearly refers to the Father as raising his son.


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #114287
06/07/09 03:28 AM
06/07/09 03:28 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Elle
Green, these text clearly refers to the Father as raising his son.

How do you know this?

I went to the Bible concordance for the Greek word definitions for "God" in each of the above texts you have quoted.

Every single time the word "God" appeared in your list of texts it was using the same Greek word. The word is "theos" and is defined in my concordance as:

theos...God, usually refers to the one true God; in a very few contexts it refers to a (pagan) god or goddess. The "Son of God" as a title of Jesus emphasizes his unique relationship to the Father. "The god of this age" refers to the devil:- God/god [1309], God's [15], gods [8], godly [6], Godward [2], exceeding fair (+791+3588)[1], godly (+2596)[1]

Spiros Zhodiates, a well-recognized modern scholar on the Greek language, says this about the word theos in his book "The Complete Word Study New Testament":

Originally Posted By: Spiros Zhodiates, Th.D.
Theós; God. Originally used by the heathen and adopted in the NT as the name of the true God. The most probable deriv. is from the verb theo, to place (see tithemi, [5087]) The heathen thought the gods were disposers (theteres, placers) and formers of all things. In using the pl. form, the Greeks intimated their belief that elements such as the heavens had their own disposer or placer, neamely the god of money called mammon (Matt. 6:24; Luke 16:9, 13). The heavens were the grand objects of divine worship throughout the heathen world as is apparent from the names attributed to the gods by the ancient Greeks.
...
The Sept. constantly translated the Hebr. pl. name Elohim, when used for the true God, by the sing. Theos, God, never by the pl. theoi, gods. The reason for this was that at the time the Sept. translation was made, Greek idolatry was the prevailing superstition, especially in Egypt under the Ptolemies. Their gods were regarded as demons, that is, intelligent beings totally separate and distinct from each other. If the translators rendered the name of the true God by the pl. theoi, they would have given the heathen under Greek culture an idea of God which was inconsistent with the unity of the divine essence and conformable to their own polytheistic notions. However, by translating the Hebrew gods as God, they inculcated the unity of God and at the same time did not deny a plurality of persons in the divine nature.

In the NT and the Sept. Theos, God, generally answers to the OT pl. name Elohim and so denotes the Triune God (see Matt. 4:7, cf. Deut. 6:16 in the Hebr. and the Sept.; Matt. 22:37, cf. Deut. 6:3; ....).

(I'm lazy to type the whole thing, so I have skipped some of the material.)

The conclusion is, the word God as used in each of those texts in your list, Elle, is applicable to all three of the Godhead. It might be appropriate here to remember that it was Jesus who spoke with Moses at the burning bush and with the children of Israel at Sinai. Jesus called Himself the "I AM." God is always God. Divinity cannot die. Jesus' human body may have died, but His divine Person never did. Remember what it said in Genesis 3:15? If Jesus' divinity had also died, and/or He had somehow lost His divinity, should that prophecy not have said that the Serpent would also bruise Jesus' head, rather than merely His heel?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #114302
06/07/09 05:23 AM
06/07/09 05:23 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
I pointed out a problem in thinking Jesus had immortality and mortality at the same time. I'm suggesting that new light can be grasp, however, if you have already studied it and you are happy with what you know. Then good for you, but I think you should let others study if they want to dig further.

making Jesus just a man is not really "new light". the concept has been debated for about 2000 years, i believe.

Quote:
ylt Eph 2:15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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