that absolutely floored me when i read that on the smyrna
site. that is a contradiction in terms if i ever heard it.

so, yes, 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

but
1Ti 6:14 .... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:...
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

and we do receive eternal life,
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;

but to receive "original, unborrowed, underived life" is a pure contradiction. if we receive eternal life, it is not inherent in us as it is in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. when, and because, we receive it it cannot be original-it came from God, it will be borrowed from God, it will be derived from God.

all the unfallen beings have unoriginal, borrowed, and derived, life from God.

and that didnt touch on His deity being given to the human race....

Jesus was obedient to his Father before his Incarnation, too.

Christ is "God manifested".

What does that mean?
It is God revealed!

"Unto the King eternal, incorruptible, invisible," "who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see," - 1 Timothy 1:16; 6:16

God, in the fullness of His Godhead dwells in light unapproachable -- glorious. Even the angels veil their faces in His presence. (See PP 252)

How is God going to relate with His Creatures?
It is Christ Who veils His blinding brightness and "goes forth" and mingles with the created!



In heaven, before sin, Christ went forth and mingled with the angels, sharing with them the will of God. (The will of God was as much His will, as the Father's will, for in this they were ONE -- One in purpose, motive, plans, ONE GOD, yet two separate individuals) Now, the angels became so accustomed to Christ mingling with them that Lucifer seemed to think they were equals and he, Lucifer, should have the same rights as Christ!

So the Godhead had to set them straight. The angels were shown that
"The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both." {PP 36.2}

Thus the ONE Who whose "goings forth" were from eternity, went forth again from the Father into this dark world, veiling His glory still further to communicate, reveal and fulfil God's will to mankind.

John 8:42 "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."Christ is showing that this was a joint plan. Both Christ and the Father planned this!

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Thus showing their unity in this plan, and Christ's true place with God the Father.

As a man Christ was totally obedient to the Father. He took on "the yoke of obedience".

As God, Christ's will was the same as the Father's will! It was not a matter of One obeying the Other.
"The angels all wear the yoke of obedience. They are the appointed messengers of Him who is the Commander of all heaven. But Christ is equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. He could pay the ransom for man's freedom. He is the eternal self-existing Son, on whom no yoke had come;" (YI June 21, 1900). {5BC 1136.12}

So Jones did say it, but is it really the context of the passage?
Or did he skip around to come to his own conclusions and give a nice spiritual message quite apart from what the text was actually saying?


Let's just stick to the text itself:

2:11 Wherefore remember, that you (the Ephesians) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, (what was the problem? they were Gentiles) who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (who was excluding them? The Circumcision in the flesh which refers to the Jewish nation who saw this ritual as their key to acceptance with God)
2:12 That at that time you (Who is he addressing again? He was addressing the Ephesian Gentiles) were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, (what were they aliens from? The commonwealth of Israel) and strangers from the covenants of promise, (who held the covenants of promise? The descendants of Abraham did) having no hope, and without God in the world: (without those covenants of promise what hope did they have?)
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (Who was Paul addressing when he started this message? The Ephesian Gentiles)
2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (now is it correct to change the subject? The whole prelude was concerning the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel and how the "circumsion" refused to accept the "uncircumsion" into the covenant of promise. There was a huge wall that fenced in the Jews and kept the Gentles out -- Paul fights to pull down this wall all through his writings)
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; (what was abolished? there was a whole ream of laws and regulations that kept the Jews away from the Gentiles. It was like a fence protecting the Jews from invasion from paganism, but Christ broke down that wall not to expose Jews to paganism but to share His gift of life with all.) for to make in himself of the two one new man, [so] making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God (if this is talking about Christ's Divinity and humanity, why would Christ have to reconcile both to God?) in one body the church is the body, Christ is the head of the bodyby the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh (Jews) (He didn't come to preach to Christ's divine and human nature but to both Jews and Gentiles). 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Through Christ both Jews and Gentiles have access to God's throne of grace! "BOTH" is not speaking of Christ's human and divine natures, but of the Jews and the Gentiles.)
3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,...

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:...

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colin:Christ's humanity died and his divinity could not, but both his identities - his personages - died. Two persons in one, and both died.

Tom:Christ's divinity could not die, but His divine personage died? So what didn't die? What's the divinity part that doesn't include His divine personage?

It's correct to say that Christ is "two persons in one"? One human and one divine?

Catching up when I shouldn't be "up" at all!

I misstate myself, there, Teresa, as I think we are all, Dedication as well, in agreement here. Jn 5:26 is quite a statement by Jesus! I should, on this point, stick to the words of Jesus, as he knows what he's talking about!! So, I take back the word "received" on this one, for we ourselves do do that!

Jesus also had glory "with the Father" in Jn 17. Dedication's quote from P&P chapter one - even that whole chapter! - helps set the scene with Prov 8:22-31. Jesus received a body from the Father, as the begotten Son - and Word since the beginning: can we agree that the Son's physical, divine form as God is from the Father? After all, Phil 2:6 (KJV) alluded to an honest analysis by the Son -joining the Father as a separate person in the full form of God, surely?

I understand Father and Son are one in nature by family relations, not just character and appearance: still, individual in personality and identity: yes, the Father isn't the Son and so on.

The Son's deity is original, begotten of the Father, with whom he shares the Godhead, of which there is a Holy Spirit, with infinite deity, having a personality, but not the same type of person as Father and Son as not having a permanent divine form or a throne. The Son's life is original to his deity, the fulness of the Godhead manifest.

Yes, I'm not sure of all that's on that smyrna website, either, but have other, better, sources of analysis of Adventist pioneer literature. Thanks for the heads up!

Are we agreed, here?

was Jesus "obedient"? or are they one-in agreement or the same- in character and purpose?

but yes, here on earth Christ was perfectly obedient to the Father as an example for us.

The verb "to take" in v. 18 is the same greek number 2983 as v. 17. So I don't understand what you mean.

Just like Christ layed down His life for us all and knowing he would receive it back again.

Christ of course. Christ is subject to the Father and the Father raised Him. We are subject to Christ and Christ will raise us. There's order in the universe.

Jesus was in harmony with his Father in nature and will all the way since he was begotten as the Father's Son: Prov 8 strongly suggests that it began with a learning process, something like divine childhood to adulthood: we just don't know for sure, but remember that we are created in the image of the Godhead, so while God isn't 'altogether' human at all we learn from him what image of him we are.