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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114550
06/10/09 09:48 PM
06/10/09 09:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, both became subject to death after disobeying God's commands.


I agree. Sin is transgression of the law, and death is the inevitable result of sin.

Quote:
The point is, the second death is a direct result of the judgment.


It's a direct result of sin.

Quote:
When people are judged for their sins, they are crushed under the weight of those sins. If there was no judgment, there would be no second death; there would be just a common and immediate death, like that of Ananias and Sapphira.


When people become aware of the truth, they are crushed under the weight of their sins. If "when people are judged for their sins" means this, I agree (although, of all the common and immediate deaths one could choose from as an illustration, the choice of Ananias and Sapphira is an interesting one to choose, as theirs hardly seems common).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114553
06/10/09 09:59 PM
06/10/09 09:59 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Posts: 1,984
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how about if there had been no sacrifice, there would be no second death?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114567
06/11/09 01:23 AM
06/11/09 01:23 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #114569
06/11/09 01:42 AM
06/11/09 01:42 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Posts: 5,638
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Huh? The sacrifice is needed to have the second death? I thought sin was the cause of the second death, and the sacrifice was the way to avoid it, not enable it. Am I missing something?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: asygo] #114570
06/11/09 02:45 AM
06/11/09 02:45 AM
teresaq  Offline
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if Jesus hadnt come to be our sacrifice we would just die.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114586
06/11/09 11:46 AM
06/11/09 11:46 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The question had a lot of negatives in it, so my one word response may have been misunderstood. I agree with Arnold's comments.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114603
06/11/09 03:39 PM
06/11/09 03:39 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
if Jesus hadnt come to be our sacrifice we would just die.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to the second death - a permanent death from which there is no return?

BTW, if Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, Adam would have died immediately.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #114604
06/11/09 03:41 PM
06/11/09 03:41 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,638
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
The question had a lot of negatives in it, so my one word response may have been misunderstood. I agree with Arnold's comments.

It's good that we're on the same page on some things. smile


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: asygo] #114605
06/11/09 03:55 PM
06/11/09 03:55 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
BTW, if Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, Adam would have died immediately.


Why? How does this apply to Lucifer's case? (i.e., Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, but Lucifer didn't die immediately).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: asygo] #114606
06/11/09 04:50 PM
06/11/09 04:50 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: teresaq
if Jesus hadnt come to be our sacrifice we would just die.

Wouldn't that be equivalent to the second death - a permanent death from which there is no return?
yes, that was my point.

Quote:
BTW, if Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, Adam would have died immediately.

these quotes seem to say differently to me.
Quote:
The sacrifice demanded by their transgression revealed to Adam and Eve the sacred character of the law of God; and they saw, as they had never seen before, the guilt of sin and its dire results. In their remorse and anguish they pleaded that the penalty might not fall upon Him whose love had been the source of all their joy; rather let it descend upon them and their posterity. {PP 66.3}

if they were to die immediately how does a "posterity" come into play?
Quote:
All Heaven mourned on account of the disobedience and fall of Adam and Eve, which brought the wrath of God upon the whole human race. They were cut off from communing with God, and were plunged in hopeless misery. The law of God could not be changed to meet man's necessity, for in God's arrangement it was never to lose its force, or give up the smallest part of its claims. {3SG 46.2}
The Son of God pities fallen man. He knows that the law of his Father is as unchanging as himself. He can only see one way of escape for the transgressor. He offers himself to his Father as a sacrifice for man, to take their guilt and punishment upon himself, and redeem them from death by dying in their place, and thus pay the ransom. The Father consents to give his dearly beloved Son to save the fallen race; and through his merits and intercession promises to receive man again into his favor, and to restore holiness to as many as should be willing to accept the atonement thus mercifully offered, and obey his law. For the sake of his dear Son the Father forbears a while the execution of death, and to Christ he commits the fallen race. {3SG 46.3}
if God does not, Himself, inflict misery, pain, and suffering on us, then how are we to understand the "wrath of God"?
Quote:
Adam's life was one of sorrow, humility, and continual repentance. As he taught his children and grand-children the fear of the Lord, he was often bitterly reproached for his sin which resulted in so much misery upon his posterity. When he left the beautiful Eden, the thought that he must die thrilled him with horror. He looked upon death as a dreadful calamity. He was first made acquainted with the dreadful reality of death in the human family by his own son Cain slaying his brother Abel. Filled with the bitterest remorse for his own transgression, and deprived of his son Abel, and looking upon Cain as his murderer, and knowing the curse God pronounced upon him, bowed down Adam's heart with grief. Most bitterly did he reproach himself for his first great transgression. He entreated pardon from God through the promised Sacrifice. Deeply had he felt the wrath of God for his crime committed in Paradise. He witnessed the general corruption which afterward finally provoked God to destroy the inhabitants of the earth by a flood. The sentence of death pronounced upon him by his Maker, which at first appeared so terrible to him, after he had lived some hundreds of years, looked just and merciful in God, to bring to an end a miserable life. {3SG 50.2}
it seems to me that the "wrath of God"-as God means it- is God leaving us to the consequences of our actions which, after much pain and suffering, ends in death.

i cant see that "the sentence of death" is what God inflicted but a statement of fact. it was the removal from the tree of life which allowed adam and eve to die, after suffering for so long.
Quote:
Adam and Eve assured the angels that they should never transgress the express command of God; for it was their highest pleasure to do his will. The angels united with Adam and Eve in holy strains of harmonious music; and as their songs pealed forth from blissful Eden, Satan heard the sound of their strains of joyful adoration to the Father and Son. And as Satan heard it, his envy, hatred, and malignity, increased, and he expressed his anxiety to his followers to incite them (Adam and Eve) to disobedience, and at once bring down the wrath of God upon them, and change their songs of praise to hatred, and curses to their Maker. {1SP 34.3}
how does that happen if they are dead?

on another note it is quite sad that so many of us have ended up doing that very thing over the millenia.

im seeing "wrath of God" more in the light of "forever and ever". it doesnt mean what it looks like it means on the surface. it means what God is thinking.




Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Page 39 of 44 1 2 37 38 39 40 41 43 44

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