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Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's #114415
06/08/09 11:01 PM
06/08/09 11:01 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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I've opened similar threads here on this topic before, but I thought I'd revisit it from another angle since Jeff Pippenger is advocating the view that the judgment of the living began for Adventists at 9-11-01. I wrote the following comments to someone earlier today:
Quote:

I do believe that Brother Jeff is making the right connections in linking the first angel's message of 1840, "the hour of His judgment is come", to it's modern application - the judgment of the living. What he should be doing, in my opinion, is showing from the types that the judgment of the living begins shortly after the Day of Atonement begins, not in 2001, but shortly after 1844 probably some months before Ellen White was shown the delay caused by God's wayward people. At that time, when Christ was ready to come the cases of the living saints were under review then, but they weren't ready for the trouble about to burst on the earth and so the angels held back the winds. And since as a corporate body the church has never been prepared to be a true reflection of the character of God (we know this is fact from Inspiration) we're still here.

But that the judgment of the living began not long after 1844, is shown in the types in that on the Day of Atonement the High Priest atoned for himself and his house before atoning for Isreal. Judgment begins with the house of God. True, the cases of the dead are judged first, but in the same order - the dead of the house of God, then the living of the house of God, the dead of Isreal, then the living of Isreal, the heathen dead, the heathen living. So Adventism is first judged. [And as Christ said, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living". He's not waiting to judge the living because He has a back-log of dead cases. He's judging and waiting for us, the living.]

When the towers of New York fall in the future, then [accorrding to Ellen White] the Loud cry will go out that God has weighed the rest of Christendom in the balance and finds it wanting, therefore every honest soul in the fallen churches must leave Babylon. Adventism first, then Christendom, then the heathen.

I expect there are other details in the types that have a bearing as well that show we've been in the judgment of the living/sealing time since the mid 1800's. While Ellen White is clear the sealing has been going on since that time, she's less clear on the judgment of the living, but she has made statments here and there that suggest the judgment of the living was in progress in her day.


Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114419
06/08/09 11:49 PM
06/08/09 11:49 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Also, the very name of our church, Laodicea, means "a people judged." The message to Laodicea was first given by Christ through Ellen White to Adventism in the mid-1850's.

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114458
06/09/09 03:41 PM
06/09/09 03:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
But that the judgment of the living began not long after 1844

Mark,
In 1911 it was yet future:

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}

Besides, the high priest was a type of Christ, not of the church. He had to make an atonement for himself just because, differently from Christ, Whom he represented, he was a sinner.

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Rosangela] #114472
06/09/09 08:16 PM
06/09/09 08:16 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Hello and greetings. smile

Well, how do you interpret this statement made in 1888?

Quote:
The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. . . . {7BC 972.1}[MS 4, 1888]



Regarding the judgment being progressive, remember Peter tells us that's the case, so it's helpful to look at the types that bare that out. The types are likely the place Peter drew his conclusions from.

Peter refers to the church as a "royal Priesthood". In the types, a bull is the sin offering of the priest. So where it says Aaron was to atone for himself and his house, it means to say that Aaron atoned first for the priesthood - only Aaron's sons could be priests. And then he atoned for Israel. All this was done in the Most Holy Place. Then Aaron come out to the Altar of Incense and did a further act of atonement.

Ellen White makes an interesting comment on this that I don't have handy that tends to imply a prgressive judgment - one that starts with the most enlighteneded and ends with the least enlightened. And isn't that as it should be? God looks for a harvest first from the best tilled and most cultivated ground.

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114474
06/09/09 08:25 PM
06/09/09 08:25 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Both of the above quotes are true - the one you quote Rosangela and the one I quote below yours. I suggest we might better understand her meaning in the first quote, yours, by asking some practicel questions about what happens in the judgment of the living when our cases come up in review? Is it any different from what she describes in the second quote? If so, how?

Isn't it true that probation is open for the individual until God is finished with the 'measuring' process? When His finishes His measuring, then your case is forever fixed.

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114475
06/09/09 08:30 PM
06/09/09 08:30 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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So I'll offer this explanation for your quote Roseangela: Ellen White isn't saying the judgment of the living had definitely not begun in 1911. It would be out of character for her to make any statement that would tend to lull the church into a false state of carnal security by assuring them that "No, the judgment of the living has definitely not started". Instead, the import of her message is that the Judgment is ongoing and for all of us it can end at any time.

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114494
06/10/09 12:53 AM
06/10/09 12:53 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Here is another excellent quote from Ellen White that I don't remember reading before:

Quote:
The time has come when everything is to be shaken that can be shaken, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Every case is coming in review before God; He is measuring the temple and the worshipers therein. {7T 219.2}

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114495
06/10/09 12:59 AM
06/10/09 12:59 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Here's another inspiring commentary on Revelation 11:1.

Quote:
His church is to be a temple built after the divine similitude, and the angelic architect has brought his golden measuring rod from heaven, that every stone may be hewed and squared by the divine measurement and polished to shine as an emblem of heaven, radiating in all directions the bright, clear beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The church is to be fed with manna from heaven and to be kept under the sole guardianship of His grace. Clad in complete armor of light and righteousness, she enters upon her final conflict. The dross, the worthless material, will be consumed, and the influence of the truth testifies to the world of its sanctifying, ennobling character. . . . {TM 17.1}

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Charity] #114510
06/10/09 11:04 AM
06/10/09 11:04 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Isn't it true that probation is open for the individual until God is finished with the 'measuring' process? When His finishes His measuring, then your case is forever fixed.


Just to be clear, the examination of the evidence doesn't fix the thing being examined. It's a verification process. It's not that God causes someone's character to be fixed, but the examination process recognizes what the character is.

Here's a quote by Waggoner I like a lot which explains the concept eloquently:

Quote:
Though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder—even this would not blot out our sin...

"The worshippers once purged"[Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have "no more conscience of sins," because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).


The case is forever fixed, because the character has been fixed, examined, and recognized as such. We recall EGW speaks of being sealed as being so settled in the truth that one cannot be moved.

Probation is open for an individual as long as he is willing to respond to the Holy Spirit.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Tom] #114512
06/10/09 11:40 AM
06/10/09 11:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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How can the judgment of the living begin before the MOB crisis begins - the final test of loyalty?

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