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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114620
06/11/09 08:54 PM
06/11/09 08:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
BTW, if Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, Adam would have died immediately.

Teresa, what Arnold said is what Ellen White says:

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. {FW 21.2}

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114621
06/11/09 09:03 PM
06/11/09 09:03 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
it seems to me that the "wrath of God"-as God means it- is God leaving us to the consequences of our actions which, after much pain and suffering, ends in death.

The wrath of God has nothing to do with the sinner - with God leaving him. The wrath of God has to do with sin. Ellen White gives a clear definition of the wrath of God:

The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. {DA 753.1}

Still in the same chapter:

God suffered His wrath against transgression to fall on His beloved Son. {DA 743.2}


Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114623
06/11/09 09:28 PM
06/11/09 09:28 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Teresa, there are so many ways God utters his wrath against sin.
All his wrathful methods of punishment and judgement during human probation differ from his wrathful judgement day of the wicked, don't they? "God is the avenging judge," says Sister White.

Natural results of sin... smile Mortal death or eternal death: murder is a sinful act, but not sin itself, but even that is the limit of sin itself, in any way. Jesus said basically not to fear the devil who can only destroy the body, but to fear & respect God who can destroy body and soul.

While God is holy & just, he is equally merciful & graceous: he does both judging like Jesus warned and saving like Jesus taught and also did.

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114626
06/11/09 09:45 PM
06/11/09 09:45 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
it seems to me that the "wrath of God"-as God means it- is God leaving us to the consequences of our actions which, after much pain and suffering, ends in death.

The wrath of God has nothing to do with the sinner - with God leaving him. The wrath of God has to do with sin. Ellen White gives a clear definition of the wrath of God:

The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. {DA 753.1}

Still in the same chapter:

God suffered His wrath against transgression to fall on His beloved Son. {DA 743.2}

and that was?

we all know that God did not come down and beat, humiliate, and put Christ on the cross.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114628
06/11/09 10:37 PM
06/11/09 10:37 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
and that was?

That was the manifestation of his displeasure because of iniquity. This caused in Christ an unbearable agony, suffering, and sorrow.

Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering. . . . The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. {AG 168.4}

But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Faith and hope tremble in the expiring agonies of Christ, because God has removed the assurance he had heretofore given his beloved Son of his approbation and acceptance. {PH169 10.3}

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114631
06/11/09 10:58 PM
06/11/09 10:58 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
BTW, if Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice, Adam would have died immediately.

Teresa, what Arnold said is what Ellen White says:

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. {FW 21.2}


so, how do we reconcile that with the statements from #114606? or do we just disregard them?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114636
06/11/09 11:28 PM
06/11/09 11:28 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
and that was?

That was the manifestation of his displeasure because of iniquity. This caused in Christ an unbearable agony, suffering, and sorrow.

Quote:
Man has not been made a sin-bearer, and he will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Saviour bore. No sorrow can bear any comparison with the sorrow of Him upon whom the wrath of God fell with overwhelming force. Human nature can endure but a limited amount of test and trial. The finite can only endure the finite measure, and human nature succumbs; but the nature of Christ had a greater capacity for suffering. . . . The agony which Christ endured, broadens, deepens, and gives a more extended conception of the character of sin, and the character of the retribution which God will bring upon those who continue in sin. {AG 168.4}

But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Faith and hope tremble in the expiring agonies of Christ, because God has removed the assurance he had heretofore given his beloved Son of his approbation and acceptance. {PH169 10.3}

we seem to be understanding these quite differently. yes God has displeasure against sin. i understand that. we should hate it as much He does. but im not sure what your picture is from there. do you see God as looking angrily at Christ while Christ was on the cross, or just how exactly, does it go from there?

Quote:
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.--Manuscript 50, 1900. {7ABC 470.3}

a pardon from what? from death.
Quote:
God bowed His head satisfied. Now justice and mercy could blend. Now He could be just, and yet the Justifier of all who should believe on Christ. He [God] looked upon the victim expiring on the cross, and said, "It is finished. The human race shall have another trial." The redemption price was paid, and Satan fell like lightning from heaven.--Youth's Instructor, June 21, 1900. {7ABC 470.4}
The only-begotten Son of God took upon Him the nature of man, and established His cross between earth and heaven. Through the cross, man was drawn to God, and God to man. Justice moved from its high and awful position, and the heavenly hosts, the armies of holiness, drew near to the cross, bowing with reverence; for at the cross justice was satisfied. Through the cross the sinner was drawn from the stronghold of sin, from the confederacy of evil, and at every approach to the cross his heart relents and in penitence he cries, "It was my sins that crucified the Son of God." At the cross he leaves his sins, and through the grace of Christ His character is transformed. The Redeemer raises the sinner from the dust, and places him under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.--The Signs of the Times, June 5, 1893.


what was on Gods mind when Christ hung on the cross?
Quote:
While the death of Christ appeared to be a hellish triumph over His humanity, it was a victory so full and broad and deep that it encompassed the world. Christ was cut off, but not for Himself. He died the just for the unjust, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. Tho innocent and undeserving of punishment, our Substitute and Surety was brought under the curse and condemnation that should have been ours. He, the perfection of holiness, was arrayed in our defiled garments, that we might be clothed with His glorious righteousness. {ST, December 8, 1898 par. 1}....
"And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour." Not only did the darkness enshroud the immediate vicinity of the cross, but "there was darkness over the whole land." {ST, December 8, 1898 par. 6}
God dwells in the thick darkness; He hides His glory from human eyes. The Father, with His heavenly angels, was inclosed in that thick darkness. God was close beside His Son, tho not manifesting Himself to Him or to any human being. Had one ray of His glory and power penetrated the thick darkness that enveloped Him, every human spectator would have been destroyed. And in that thick darkness God hid from prying eyes the last human agony of His Son. He clothed nature with sackcloth, that she might not look upon her suffering, dying Author in His last humiliation. {ST, December 8, 1898 par. 7}
....But His accusers would not heed the signet of heaven, and that countenance was hidden by the mantle of God. {ST, December 8, 1898 par. 8}

In the light and assurance of His Word, and through His atoning sacrifice, we may see how God can vindicate His justice. He opens our eyes to behold His holiness in its true luster, and yet justifies the sinner who comes to Him by Christ. In the pardon given to the dying thief, it was made manifest that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree. He bore our griefs and sorrows. That heart of human and divine love was exercised for the relief of the woes of the world. {ST, December 8, 1898 par. 12}


and now im going to back off, so you can have the last word. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114639
06/11/09 11:45 PM
06/11/09 11:45 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
so, how do we reconcile that with the statements from #114606? or do we just disregard them?

Well, I understand that when Adam asked that the penalty for sin might fall upon them and their posterity, he was conscious that the human race would be extinct - no salvation for he and his wife, or for the posterity which might have existed if he had not sinned. And the quote which says that the fall of Adam and Eve brought the wrath of God upon the whole human race, it means the inhabitants of earth (independently of their number). The quote below also speaks of the human race and of its immediate death had Christ not interposed:

Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance; and in this plan of benevolence all their posterity were embraced. After the fall, Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death." {ST, May 29, 1901 par. 11}


Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: teresaq] #114640
06/11/09 11:58 PM
06/11/09 11:58 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
yes God has displeasure against sin. i understand that. we should hate it as much He does. but im not sure what your picture is from there. do you see God as looking angrily at Christ while Christ was on the cross, or just how exactly, does it go from there?

No. The Father's displeasure was against sin, not against His dear Son. But He couldn't show His approbation, love and favor to Christ as He had always done, because our sin was upon Him.

The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. This sundering of the divine powers will never again occur throughout the eternal ages (MS 93, 1899). {7BC 924.2}

Quote:
and now im going to back off, so you can have the last word.

I like to discuss things because I have learned and continue to learn many things in this process, but I hope I don't give the impression that I want to have the last word. smile

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #114641
06/12/09 12:05 AM
06/12/09 12:05 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
ok, that is how you read them.

i can see why God, in His mercy, would have annihilated them-and satan- instantly instead of allowing them to live on in misery, pain, and suffering, until we had exterminated ourselves, if there had been no remedy. but there is also the case of the unfallen worlds. if God had put them out of their misery, so to speak, the unfallen worlds would never have seen what sin is and does.

so the above quote is only one part. we see the other parts of the problem in other statements.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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