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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114634
06/11/09 11:27 PM
06/11/09 11:27 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mark,
When sins are blotted out, God does not save a backup copy of them (otherwise they aren't really blotted out). If someone's sins are blotted out, but in the future that person abandons Christ, this means that that person will not be accountable to God for those sins which were blotted out. Is this what you believe?
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Tom]
#114660
06/12/09 10:51 AM
06/12/09 10:51 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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The truth of the messages doesn't do any good if it is not heard. They don't really "live on" in this case. They're more "slumbering, as if dead." Eugene Prewitt of OHC makes a good observation regarding whether a message is heard or not. When Christ says to the Laodicean church: "behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice..." Prewitt observes that there's an 'if' in the passage and he concludes that some must not hear the knock. And the reason they don't hear is that they aren't placing themselves where they can hear - by reading and applying the prophets, the SOP and the messenger's God sends. The message is sounding to Laodicea, but in many cases, it's not being heard. So the heart door is shut. Does it seem reasonable that God would call the final and seventh church to account? If so, how would he do it? Isn't the truth of this message itself the latter rain message for us, the one we'll account for?
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114664
06/12/09 12:09 PM
06/12/09 12:09 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Prewitt observes that there's an 'if' in the passage and he concludes that some must not hear the knock. And the reason they don't hear is that they aren't placing themselves where they can hear - by reading and applying the prophets, the SOP and the messenger's God sends. The message is sounding to Laodicea, but in many cases, it's not being heard. So the heart door is shut. I haven't read Prewitt and maybe he says this to, but can I add to Prewitt thoughts the essentials? I believe it is Jesus standing outside the door, and the knock, is Truly His voice. He works in bringing us to a point of reflection through trials, and He knocks. He wants to come in our heart and teach us all truth as written in 1Jo 2:27 and give us Life eternal, which is only found when He's inside. Scriptures can only be read and applied in it's true context when we dine regularly with Jesus who is the Truth and the Way. Only through surrendering self and opening the door to let Christ mind and heart in; then He will reveal all Truths and will set us Free and give us the real victory only found in Christ. Many are avid readers and applying scriptures and SOP to what their own "mind" or "Self" has understood. However, you will be far from the Truth and Christ will say, "I know you not". These are the people who have the Laodiceans state and spirit. The Laodicean condition was also with the Jewish Faith at His first coming. They knew scriptures, the common Jewish people let the leaders interpret scriptures for them, just as we find our Church today. Paul did not come close to understand what he thought he knew, until he met up with Jesus. Jesus inside our heart can only be possible if ourself is dead, which makes a whole difference in our condition and outview of scriptures. Just like night and day.
Blessings
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114667
06/12/09 01:20 PM
06/12/09 01:20 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Mark,
When sins are blotted out, God does not save a backup copy of them (otherwise they aren't really blotted out). If someone's sins are blotted out, but in the future that person abandons Christ, this means that that person will not be accountable to God for those sins which were blotted out. Is this what you believe? I have to admit that this point has always been confusing to me. Actually, not exactly the what, but the when. For example, when Christ says (through David) "as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us," it must necessarily be referencing a future point in time, and be looking back at it as though it were historical fact. My understanding is that if a person is lost, ALL of their sins will be upon them. Only if they are saved will those sins, all of them, be placed upon the scapegoat (Satan). It's all or none either way. Thus, when the Bible speaks of our sins being remembered no more, it is speaking of a time yet future, because the books of record will yet be reviewed by everyone, that it may be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that God has been fair in every case. This is why Mrs. White speaks of having "Forgiven" written beside the record of confessed sins. The record, however, is still there. During the millennium, the records will be opened. I think after the millennium they will be forever expunged and/or sealed, for it says that at that point, He will wipe away every tear and the former things will be remembered no more. The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ." Acts 3:19, 20. When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be. {GC 485.2}
Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life. {GC 486.2} It appears that the sins are blotted only for the righteous during the investigative judgment. The sins of the wicked will stand on record for the jury of the saints to review during the millennium. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#114691
06/12/09 07:31 PM
06/12/09 07:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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R:If someone's sins are blotted out, but in the future that person abandons Christ, this means that that person will not be accountable to God for those sins which were blotted out. As Waggoner pointed out, deleting a record of the sins is meaningless of itself. To be blotted out, the sins must be removed from the person's being, his character. The records simply reflect the reality of the character. To be sealed is to be so settled in the truth that one cannot be moved, so the above is describing an impossible situation anyway.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Tom]
#114692
06/12/09 07:35 PM
06/12/09 07:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Does it seem reasonable that God would call the final and seventh church to account? If so, how would he do it? Robert J. Wieland has written a couple of books on this subject. You might be interested in taking a look at one. I really like "A knocking at the door" very much. I don't know if it's still available. If it's not, "Corporate Repentance" should be, which presents similar ideas.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114698
06/12/09 09:17 PM
06/12/09 09:17 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Can I ask you a question Rosangela: Do you think the judgment of the living is a process or simply and examination of the individual's case? Will the individual come up to the judgment at a single point in time - when his book of record is opened? Or does the judgment of the living deal with enlightenment and with being confronted with choices as a result of our enlightenment? And what are the implications for either option? For example, when does probation close in both cases? Or can both views be true?
PS, I wrote the above before realizing you and others had posted more comments.
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 06/12/09 09:23 PM.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#114712
06/13/09 12:16 AM
06/13/09 12:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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It appears that the sins are blotted only for the righteous during the investigative judgment. The sins of the wicked will stand on record for the jury of the saints to review during the millennium. Yes, I agree completely. That's why I'm pointing out that the judgment of the living (the review of their cases) cannot have started. To me, it can only start near the end of probation. If the life of a person is passed in review, the destiny of that person is already fixed. Or (if I understand Mark's position correctly) if the sins are blotted out as they are confessed, what will happen if the person later abandons Christ?
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114713
06/13/09 12:28 AM
06/13/09 12:28 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Can I ask you a question Rosangela: Do you think the judgment of the living is a process or simply and examination of the individual's case? Will the individual come up to the judgment at a single point in time - when his book of record is opened? Or does the judgment of the living deal with enlightenment and with being confronted with choices as a result of our enlightenment? And what are the implications for either option? For example, when does probation close in both cases? Or can both views be true? Mark, what I think is that we who are living at the antitypical day of atonement are in a especial situation. "In this great day of atonement our work is that of heart-searching, of self-abasement, and confession of sin, each humbling his own soul before God, and seeking pardon for himself individually. Anciently every one that did not on the day of atonement afflict his soul, was cut off from the people." {HS 213.3} This work must occur in our lives in preparation for the review of our cases. But the review itself is an event, not a process. So I believe there are both a process and an event related to our judgment.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114716
06/13/09 01:06 AM
06/13/09 01:06 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Mark, what I think is that we who are living at the antitypical day of atonement are in a especial situation. . .
This work must occur in our lives in preparation for the review of our cases. But the review itself is an event, not a process. So I believe there are both a process and an event related to our judgment. So is the process of preparation part of the judgment of the living or only the review?
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