Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,214
Members1,326
|
Most Online5,850 Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
8 registered members (Karen Y, dedication, Daryl, daylily, TheophilusOne, 3 invisible),
2,504
guests, and 13
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114867
06/18/09 08:01 PM
06/18/09 08:01 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Hmm. What do the rest of you think?
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114871
06/19/09 01:21 AM
06/19/09 01:21 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I think this is easier to understand if one thinks about what is actually happening on earth.
The times of the refreshing apply to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which comes in the form of a message, the message which began in 1888 -- in other words, the Gospel. The Gospel prepares the harvest, which is to say, those who would stand in the day of God without a mediator. Those who receive the message of God will develop characters which can stand in the day of judgment. They will be settled in the truth.
Only *after* one has settled into truth can the records of the books of heaven record this fact. This is simple common sense. This is what the blotting out of sins represents -- the person's character has become so settled in truth that there is no chance that the sins which formerly appeared in the person's life can appear. Iow, they are blotted out.
So the timing described by Sister White, and Peter, makes perfect sense:
1.God sends a message to prepare the harvest, which is the Gospel, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This happens during the times of refreshing.
2.This message results in the settling into of truth, and removal of sin, for those who accept it.
3.While this happens, the investigative judgment of the living (which cannot happen until after the living are settled into truth) takes place.
4.After the examination of the evidence is complete, the books in heaven are closed, or, to say it another way, the sins of the living who have been judged are blotted out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114877
06/19/09 11:56 AM
06/19/09 11:56 AM
|
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
|
|
T:It's the other way around, of course! The person's lives are examined, and if they have no sin, *then* there is a blotting out of sins from the books.
R:I disagree, of course. A little behind on this one. Tom, your chase after reality mustn't forget that heaven rules over all. The books of heaven don't just record our choices: they also are premised on our Mediator's righteousness - and our choices about him. Since heaven leads us in following Christ, it is not we who initiate the changes in our record - even with us experiencing those changes, and so the records of heaven have precendence over our lives. On blotting out of sin, I've always understood it to be the final blotting out of recorded forgiveness. It's not mere forgiveness and repentance which blots out recorded sins - since there is then a record of repentance, etc: the blotting out of our sinful record is surely the final cleansing of our characters as sin is removed from our lives. Blotting out is removal of record of sinful past, not removal of record of sinning itself, not so?
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Colin]
#114881
06/19/09 01:51 PM
06/19/09 01:51 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Since heaven leads us in following Christ, it is not we who initiate the changes in our record - even with us experiencing those changes, and so the records of heaven have precedence over our lives. The records are just records. They don't have precedence over anything. They just record reality. The reality is what drives everything. I agree completely that heaven initiates everything, and the records will record that as well. On blotting out of sin, I've always understood it to be the final blotting out of recorded forgiveness. Why would recorded forgiveness need to be blotted out? It's not mere forgiveness and repentance which blots out recorded sins - since there is then a record of repentance, etc: the blotting out of our sinful record is surely the final cleansing of our characters as sin is removed from our lives. This sounds like what I've been saying to me. Blotting out is removal of record of sinful past, not removal of record of sinning itself, not so? This is saying the same thing too, isn't it? Unless you mean something different than what I'm understanding. When you say the removal of sinful past, I'm assuming your talking in terms of character. Is that correct? In other words, our sinful past has been removed from our character. The records in heaven record that fact. The blotting out of the record reflects the blotting out that has taken place in the character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Tom]
#114886
06/19/09 09:21 PM
06/19/09 09:21 PM
|
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
|
|
Since heaven leads us in following Christ, it is not we who initiate the changes in our record - even with us experiencing those changes, and so the records of heaven have precedence over our lives. The records are just records. They don't have precedence over anything. They just record reality. The reality is what drives everything. I agree completely that heaven initiates everything, and the records will record that as well. Good on your second paragraph. It's not just character changing for Christlikeness: it's also the legal record of forgiveness for our past, as we are regenerated in our present lives. Heaven's judgement involves both, but is based on the objective legal record as well as the regenerated subjective righteous experience of justification: that's our qualification for heaven, of course. Heaven's legal process includes this judgement of the saints: a judgement based solely on what is in those books of record - as it says in Rev 20 & Dan 7. Our record there reflects our reality here - true, but, since heaven leads in all this, its judgement, which makes a precedent for all eternity - for God, Christ and the redeemed, means those books of record govern our lives. The heavenly records of our lives, led by Christ also in judging us, drive everything!On blotting out of sin, I've always understood it to be the final blotting out of recorded forgiveness. Why would recorded forgiveness need to be blotted out? It's not mere forgiveness and repentance which blots out recorded sins - since there is then a record of repentance, etc: the blotting out of our sinful record is surely the final cleansing of our characters as sin is removed from our lives. This sounds like what I've been saying to me. Tom, they're both saying the same thing, as below again. Our sinful record, as saints, is a record of forgiven sins. I wasn't crystal clear in that quote, anyway: forgiveness is recorded against our past sins we have confessed, constituting our "past, sinful record" - the word "past" added for precision. That forgiven past is indeed replaced in us by the righteous present of imputed mind and imparted character. That you don't think God himself needs an atoning sacrifice to be able to forgive us affects this point too, as our forgiven, past, sinful record is the primary basis (our regeneration is secondary, as part of our justification) of our qualification for heaven in God's judgement. The rule of his law features here, in the judgement, in his just forgiveness of us - its penalty having been applied to our Substitute by him, not just our character reformation. Blotting out is removal of record of sinful past, not removal of record of sinning itself, not so? This is saying the same thing too, isn't it? Unless you mean something different than what I'm understanding. When you say the removal of sinful past, I'm assuming your talking in terms of character. Is that correct? In other words, our sinful past has been removed from our character. The records in heaven record that fact. The blotting out of the record reflects the blotting out that has taken place in the character. [/quote] Yes, character change accompanies forgiveness, but forgiveness comes first, and characer change takes a while longer. You do see both being elements of the judgement analysis of the saints by Christ, don't you?
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Rosangela]
#114893
06/19/09 11:53 PM
06/19/09 11:53 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." He marks our contrition of soul; and our sins will go beforehand to judgment; and when the times of refreshing shall come, they will be blotted out by the blood of the Lamb, and our names will be retained in the Lamb's book of life. {RH, May 7, 1889 par. 6} " There are two things to note here:
1) that the opening of the books [the judgment of the living] will happen at the times of refreshing, ...
What do you all think this phrase means - "and our sins will go beforehand to judgment;". Sister White is quoting I Tim. 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some they follow after
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114913
06/20/09 02:40 PM
06/20/09 02:40 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Below is quote from Ellen White that sheds light on the idea in I Timothy 5:24 of "sins going beforehand to judgment." In Sister White's view, what she calls the 'judgment of the living' is that time when the individual's case is decided and the person's eternal destiny is irrevocably fixed or determined. In her understanding, this judgment takes place at a descrete point in time and is not a process. So the burden she had for the church was that now, during the anti-typical Day of Atonement, now, during the Investigative Judgment, the latter rain, sealing, measuring time, by deep confession and repentance our sins should go beforehand to judgment. In other words now is the time of measuring, investigative judgment and sealing. When the living are finally judged at the end, there is no further opportunity to develop character. So I need to apologize and make it clear that Ellen White uses the term 'judgment of the living' differently from the way I used it earlier. It's important to use terms from another person in the way that they intend. So again, my apologies. I hope though that that we'll take her urging to heart to study to know the times we're living in - the time of repentance when our sins can go beforehand to judgment. We are in the great day of atonement, when our sins are, by confession and repentance, to go beforehand to judgment. God does not now accept a tame, spiritless testimony from His ministers. Such a testimony would not be present truth. The message for this time must be meat in due season to feed the church of God. But Satan has been seeking gradually to rob this message of its power, that the people may not be prepared to stand in the day of the Lord. {1SM 124.3}
In 1844 our great High Priest entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to begin the work of the investigative judgment. The cases of the righteous dead have been passing in review before God. When that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living. How precious, how important are these solemn moments! Each of us has a case pending in the court of heaven. We are individually to be judged according to the deeds done in the body. In the typical service, when the work of atonement was performed by the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary, the people were required to afflict their souls before God, and confess their sins, that they might be atoned for and blotted out. Will any less be required of us in this antitypical day of atonement, when Christ in the sanctuary above is pleading in behalf of His people, and the final, irrevocable decision is to be pronounced upon every case? {1SM 125.1}
What is our condition in this fearful and solemn time? Alas, what pride is prevailing in the church, what hypocrisy, what deception, what love of dress, frivolity, and amusement, what desire for the supremacy! All these sins have clouded the mind, so that eternal things have not been discerned. Shall we not search the Scriptures, that we may know where we are in this world's history? Shall we not become intelligent in regard to the work that is being accomplished for us at this time, and the position that we as sinners should occupy while this work of atonement is going forward? If we have any regard for our souls' salvation, we must make a decided change. We must seek the Lord with true penitence; we must with deep contrition of soul confess our sins, that they may be blotted out. {1SM 125.2}
We must no longer remain upon the enchanted ground. We are fast approaching the close of our probation. Let every soul inquire, How do I stand before God? We know not how soon our names may be taken into the lips of Christ, and our cases be finally decided. What, oh, what will these decisions be! Shall we be counted with the righteous, or shall we be numbered with the wicked? {1SM 125.3}
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114915
06/20/09 03:34 PM
06/20/09 03:34 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Today I came across this fascinating vision on the measuring of the church. During the night of the first Sabbath of the Newcastle meeting, I seemed to be in meeting, presenting the necessity and importance of our receiving the Spirit. This was the burden of my labor--the opening of our hearts to the Holy Spirit. . . . In my dream a sentinel stood at the door of an important building, and asked every one who came for entrance, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost?" A measuring-line was in his hand, and only very, very few were admitted into the building. "Your size as a human being is nothing," he said. "But if you have reached the full stature of a man in Christ Jesus, according to the knowledge you have had, you will receive an appointment to sit with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb; and through the eternal ages, you will never cease to learn of the blessings granted in the banquet prepared for you. {1SM 109.2}
"You may be tall and well-proportioned in self, but you cannot enter here. None can enter who are grown-up children, carrying with them the disposition, the habits, and the characteristics which pertain to children. If you have nurtured suspicions, criticism, temper, self-dignity, you cannot be admitted; for you would spoil the feast. All who go in through this door have on the wedding garment, woven in the loom of heaven. . . .
As these words were spoken, I saw that some turned sadly away and mingled with the scoffers. Others, with tears, all broken in heart, made confession to those whom they had bruised and wounded. They did not think of maintaining their own dignity, but asked at every step, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). The answer was, "Repent, and be converted, that your sins may go beforehand to judgment, and be blotted out." …
As I presented these principles to the people in the Sabbath meeting, all seemed to feel that the Lord had spoken through the feeble instrument.--The Review and Herald, April 11, 1899. {1SM 111.2}
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 06/20/09 03:42 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114917
06/20/09 03:53 PM
06/20/09 03:53 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
I was fascinated by the test of the measuring angel in the above vision. Did you notice that he asks "Have ye received the Holy Spirit"? It sounds Penticostal to us doesn't it, but that's what he says. Tom, you were suggesting the latter rain began in 1888 but stopped or slowed. Have a look at this quote, which relates to the sentinal's test - receiving the Holy Spirit: The dispensation in which we are now living is to be, to those that ask, the dispensation of the Holy Spirit. Ask for His blessing. It is time we were more intense in our devotion. To us is committed the arduous, but happy, glorious work of revealing Christ to those who are in darkness. We are called to proclaim the special truths for this time. For all this the outpouring of the Spirit is essential. We should pray for it. The Lord expects us to ask Him. We have not been wholehearted in this work.
What can I say to my brethren in the name of the Lord? What proportion of our efforts has been made in accordance with the light the Lord has been pleased to give? We cannot depend upon form or external machinery. What we need is the quickening influence of the Holy Spirit of God. "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts." Pray without ceasing, and watch by working in accordance with your prayers. As you pray, believe, trust in God. It is the time of the latter rain, when the Lord will give largely of His Spirit. Be fervent in prayer, and watch in the Spirit. {TM 511-512.} We need to be asking, have we recieved the latter rain, don't we?
|
|
|
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#114921
06/20/09 05:04 PM
06/20/09 05:04 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
the difference between the pentecostal spirit and the true HS is the results. the first is a counterfeit feel-good, demand- power religion. it does have high standards but without the true HS it is just legalistic and without meaning, demanding that the HS work whenever commanded. i have seen pentecostalists build themselves up into a frenzy. quite scary. the true HS is a convicting, penitential Spirit. the aa 12-steps stresses humility and righting wrongs to maintain sobriety. i see very little of that stressed in the church. in fact i see the opposite encouraged. "im a christian/sda and proud of it." :0 when it should be, "Father, i fall so far short of the mark. i consistently misportray You in all i do." None can enter who are grown-up children, carrying with them the disposition, the habits, and the characteristics which pertain to children. If you have nurtured suspicions, criticism, temper, self-dignity, you cannot be admitted; for you would spoil the feast. All who go in through this door have on the wedding garment, woven in the loom of heaven. . . . our standard is quite low in light of this...
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|