Do not know if I have posted here on this subject before or not, but this is my take and has been since I first became a Christian and read about the Plagues of Egypt and the plagues to come at the end before Jesus comes.

I have never had a problem with God executing His judgments upon an evil world and evil people and evil angels. He created all of it and it is His to do as He wish. Not what I would want or what I think He should do, but what He does.

This fact has never changed in my mind that God will met out his wrath and punishment upon the wicked. This never has changed my view of His love, compassion or mercy in my mind.

It is through His law, the Ten Commandments I came to know Him. That's right, through the Law. Not a legal set of words, but an understanding of His love for us so much that He set up rules in which we can live by for our own good on all levels of life.

These Commandments were written out by the heart and mind of God through love knowing our need to have rules in which to help us to know His will for us in our lives.

To divert from these rules we suffer the consequences of our actions either directly or indirectly by disobedience to His laws.

When a person breaks a law we arrest them for the crime. We take them to court and if found guilty met out a punishment that fits the crime or who we hope that we have judged and metted out a punishment, which unfortunately some innocent people have suffered someone else's punishment.

When we as the jury have found someone guilty, the judge sets up the punishment according to law of the crime committed. Does the jury have no part in this? They have when they found the person guilty. We are part of the hand that extends to the judge that determines the punishment by the verdict we have set. We know what the consequences of the guilty verdict will be. We are a whole of the system in which we have set up our justice system.

The same is true of God's government. Whether He does the punishment by His own hand or sends an angel to do it, it still is the same hand giving out the punishment to the offender. Directly or indirectly it is still the same God that created this creature out of love that will destroy that same creature out of His justice.

Does justice come out of love? Of course for He knows that the wicked would never be happy with all of eternity in heaven. His mercy in His wrath of destruction by His own hand belongs to Him.

The plagues are in an order written in Revelation. In a world that will be out of control completely God still will have the power to distribute His wrath in the order that He has written out by His Word. These plagues will be quick and swift so as to spare the Saints from having to endure watching for very long such horror.

Only a God could make such timing happen. If Satan had his way it would go on forever or as long as it could, but God in His mercy will allow it to go on long enough to fulfill his will and purpose by His own wrath and hand.

To anyone who thinks that God is just going to let it all go and allow Satan to finish off that which He created is wrong. It all belongs to Him and He does everything according to His plan and timing, even the plagues.

i think God cuts it short for the sake of the lost, also. i grew up with the idea that God hated the lost, so as i have learned, and not just superficially, that God deeply cares for the lost as much as His own people it has created in me a deep respect and admiration for Him.
that is a good point.

im not sure what specifically you are referring to, but these verses make it look like the earth will be pretty much devastated.

this one is quite interesting also: ylt Rev 11:18..., and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'

There are some who believe that God is going to just sit back and let Satan destroy everything after the four winds are let go. That God allows Satan control over the plagues and the destruction. the only thing God controls is how long that will happen.

This is contrary to Scripture in Revelation:

16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Who and where are the seven angels? They are the good angels in heaven. Who's wrath are they pouring out? Gods wrath. Not their wrath, but God's wrath according to the plagues that he bring upon the earth.

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth.
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea
And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters

This is something that come down from heaven by each angel and contains the wrath of God being poured out.

Some say that this is not fair. When the books are opened even the Saints well see the fairness and how many times God gave each one of us to hear His voice and follow His Son.

have you ever taken a good look at each plague in revelation, or are you just speaking from a general belief?

take this for example:

these verses all apply to the same time period. according to rev 17:16 who does what to whom?

i dont think you especially believe in the prophetic ministry of ellen white so ill leave what she has to say out of this, tho i will include the pioneers understanding.

Dear Teresa:

I do not know what books have lined my bookshelf for the last 32 years, but I do recall them being called the Spirit of Prophecy given to Ellen G. White by the Word of God.

I am talking about one point in a whole picture of the plagues. I am talking about who is in control? Who wrath are we talking about? Who has the power to create and who has the power to destroy both body and soul as given in Matthew:

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We know them as Satan and his followers whether they be fallen angels and men, but we do know who HIM is which is able to destroy both soul and body.

In Revelation it says:

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

When the wicked were destroyed by His brightness when He came and those that remained in the graves will be resurrected into living beings one last time. If he has the power to destroy, and the power to recreate, He will destroy one last time fulfilling Revelation 20.

I was just looking at Revelation 16. Yes there is more, a lot more. I only have time to type so much without making lines upon lines of posting that would go for pages. I hope you can understand that.

if i have you mixed up with others, my bad and my apologies!


yes, God does have the power to destroy, but does He exercise it? is that what God is about? but i am not trying to say God never "destroys".

the verses i posted referred to only one "plague". what more in the bible has to do with that one plague and why the need to post pages and pages? it is either God Who destroys in that one or it isnt.

i am trying to go plague by plague, event by event. i get the idea you want to go by a general belief. you believe that God destroys and you want to prove that. ok. lets do it event by event. contrary to what i have seen, generally, on these forums i dont mind in the least admitting that i either dont know or could be wrong. so you really have nothing to lose if we take each plague mentioned in the bible and see W/who or what did it.

i also get that you did not understand what specific event those verses referred to. it is just one plague, the last plague. but we can start at the beginning of the last plagues, if you like tho i dont understand why we cant start at the first egyptian plague since that has already been started, here.

there is nothing to fear, here. either God destroys in the plagues and it can be proved..... or

Many believe the plagues were just natural phenomena. Sometimes the Lord does use natural phenomena as signs (the Lisbon earthquake, the fall of the stars, and perhaps even the dark day), but this doesn’t seem to me to be the case here, owing to the nature of these phenomena.
For instance, some explain the plague of the frogs saying that the death of the fish caused a population explosion among frogs, because fish eat frog eggs; if you have no fish, more eggs will hatch. However, the Bible gives us to understand that just seven days after the Lord had smitten the river, He told Moses to announce the plague of the frogs (Ex 7:25-8:2). But 16 weeks must elapse from the moment a tadpole hatches to the moment the frog is able to emerge onto land (www.wwt.org.uk/uploads/frog-and-toad.pdf), so I see no foundation in this hypothesis. Others say that the plague of the frogs is a natural consequence of the mass death of the fish: this large number of frogs was driven onto the land by the polluted Nile water. But the water was polluted before the fish decayed, since it caused their death. Therefore, if it hadn’t killed the existing frogs, it would have forced them to leave the river immediately, not one week later. Still others say that frogs are very abundant just after the high Nile when the waters begin to recede, so they would have left the marshes and come forth. But I see some problems here: 1) the floods occur between June and September, and the Exodus occurred in March-April. The impression the Bible gives us is that the plagues occurred in a rapid sequence, not that they took so many months; 2) just one week or so before, the Egyptians had dug about the river to obtain water (Ex 7:24) – this seems incompatible with a flood scenario.
However, the main reason why I don't think this was a natural phenomenon is that the magicians imitated the plague, which implies that it was a supernatural, and not a natural, event.
So I don't see how this plague could have been a natural phenomenon resulting from God’s removing of His protecting power.
Besides, this view doesn’t seem to me to be compatible with the language used by Ellen White: “Yet even here the work of God was shown to be superior to the power of Satan, for the magicians could not perform all those miracles which God wrought through Moses."
As I said in previous discussions with Tom, God is sometimes said to do what He permits, but, as I see it, this is not always the case, and Ellen White’s words are sometimes too clear to make room for an alternative interpretation, as for instance in this case (which refers to another episode but has to do with the same principle):

The same angel who had left the royal courts of heaven to rescue Peter from the power of his persecutor, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; but it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, bringing mortal disease upon him.--3SP 344. {TA 234.1}

I would think the reverse would be true. If the magicians *couldn't* imitate the plague, that would be more likely to be evidence that the supernatural was involved.



I think it's always the case. At least, I can't think of any exceptions off the top of my head. Certainly God doesn't act contrary to His own law, nor contrary to the revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. This is the biggest flaw I see in the common interpretation of the plagues -- it simply has God acting so contrary to what Jesus Christ lived and taught, on the face of it, the common interpretation can't possibly be true.



The same thing could be said about Scripture. The words of Scripture are sometimes too clear to make room for an alternative interpretation, yet Ellen White does precisely this!

For example, Scripture says:



Yes Ellen White says:



So if, even when Jesus' words are too clear to make room for an alternative interpretation, Ellen White does so anyway, why can't the same thing apply to her? (i.e., perhaps words which seem so clear that can't be interpreted differently than what they appear to be saying, can be)

There's a lot of examples of this same principle that could be given from Scripture.

It seems to me that the first chapter of "The Great Controversy" is laying out general principles. The destruction of Jerusalem is an example of the principles unfolding. If we take the position that it's simply one way of God's destroying, while God can destroy in other ways, then we run into the problem of not knowing who's doing what. For example, in the final plagues, when people are being tormented and destroyed and killed, how will we know who's doing it, God or Satan? And why would God act so contrary to what Jesus lived and taught?

When Jesus was urged to destroy, he replied "you know not of what spirit you are." What would this be any different today? (or in the future). The Spirit of Prophecy commented that "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. (DA 487)"

Would God act in a way that would provide conclusive evidence that he possessed the spirit of Satan?



Regarding the example you gave, I think anyone who shares the paradigm I laid out a few posts ago, would see that what caused Herod's death was God's ceasing to continue in some way something He was doing which was preventing Herod from being destroyed. We don't often think in terms that God has to do anything to keep us healthy. We have the ideas that our bodies are self-working, that God's not really involved. But God is involved in the workings of nature, including our bodies, in ways we cannot even fathom. If He should withdraw His actions, then instant death would take place, such as what we see with Ananias and Sapphira, or Herod.

Herod's painful death came not as a result of God's sadistically hurting and killing him, but as a result of his own rejection of God.

im not seeing the similarity between "natural phenomena" that you mention above and Gods constant restraining of nature, as well as all evil. it isnt the same idea for me.

imitated how? the testimonies 1 passage you provided earlier and other articles of hers which contain those statements have to do with satans counterfeiting the work of God and his deceiving power and continues in describing his (satans) work now. so how do you see satan as "imitating" the serpents, and frogs?and here?


and what might that different stroke be? do we know?

we also have this one.
When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. And so completely will men be deceived by him that they will declare that these calamities are the result of the desecration of the first day of the week. From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be.--RH Sept. 17, 1901.

What is God's wrath? Romans 1:18 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven ". If it's revealed, does Romans explain what the wrath of God is?