Amen, Rosangela.

Basically, those who would say that God is not able to punish the wicked (because He is too good to do so), deny His power, and make Him into a weaker Being. Is He not omnipotent, almighty?

Tell me, was it Satan's "glory" that smote Uzzah? How about the thousands who died from looking into the ark?

Let's see, if Satan really didn't like God, why would he be working together with God so gleefully? And isn't God telling Satan what he can do and precisely when to do it something akin to the servants of the Jews who turn on their lights and push the elevator buttons on Sabbath so that they don't have to? What kind of a God would this be, who could not do these things Himself?



When we speak of an almighty God, we should be speaking with fear and trembling, for holy is His name. If He were not powerful, if He were not able to punish, then why should we concern ourselves with how we address Him? He is not almighty who has no power to judge and to punish. If He in some way needed Satan to be His executor of justice, then why would He ever choose to rid Himself of the Destroyer?

These things make no sense. God having the power, the wisdom, and the justice to punish when necessary is the only thing that makes sense.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I don't know of anyone who claims this(i.e., that God is unable to punish the wicked). Do you?

Of course God is able to do whatever He wants. He is all-powerful. The fact that He is able but unwilling to do certain things does not weaken Him.

For example, do you think God would do something immoral? Of course not, right? That doesn't make Him weaker in your eyes, does it?

Also I don't think there's any disagreement that God will punish the wicked. Where there's a difference of opinion is in regards to how the wicked will be punished, and, in particular, what the role of literal fire will be. Will literal fire burn their flesh while God supernaturally keeps them alive so that they can feel excruciating pain to pay for their sins? I think it's particularly this idea that some object to.

But if God can punish the wicked without proceeding as above, that should still keep Him strong, right?



Not being willing to do immoral things does not make one stronger.



This is my question! If one takes the idea that God is the one causing the destruction of the seven last plagues, then we see God and Satan working hand in hand torturing and killing. I can see why Satan would do this, but not God.



These are odd questions. God doesn't tell anyone to do evil. Only an evil being does this. God tells Satan the same thing He tells everyone, to do good. Satan has chosen to go his own way, however.

Satan does evil, and casts his actions as God's. That's his modus operandi.





A good God!

Jumping in the middle without having followed nor much time lately, I couldn't help the above quote from catching my eye as someone recently just repeated it almost word for word. I would like to not critique the one who just said it, but the phrase in general. I am reminded that various people in various settings, when confronted with the suggestion that God may not be out to destroy people, they almost repeat the same thing word for word. I find that extremely uncanny, and being an individual who questions and thinks about things, I have to bite my tongue.

It's almost like they all attended the same club and were told that if anyone says God is a loving God and isn't going to cause the tortures of Hitler seem like nothing say, "Basically, those who...". It's almost like there's some conspiracy (and there is a non-human conspiracy, isn't there?) to defame God.

Has anyone else observed the same repeated phrase and have any ideas why it's almost word for word? I suspect it could be some book, some movie,...

Hey kland! A blast from the past! If you have time, please take a look at #114874 (the last post on the previous page of this thread, if your page looks like mine), a rather lengthy post I wrote which goes into some principles involved in considering a question of this sort. I imagine you'll agree with what I wrote, but would be interested in any comments you might have.

kland, regarding your comment about, "Basically, those who...", I can't comment on that, but regarding the rest of what was said, there is the following EGW statement which is fairly well known:



Some read this and think it is countering the types of ideas you and I (other other like-minded weird people) have on this subject.

she is referring to how we "couple" those two words together so glibly, but i get your point.
the problem for me, gc, is that i dont have any problem whatsoever imitating that picture. it comes naturally.

but imitating the real power of God, the power that suffered 33 years of constant abuse and then a cruel death, that one i dont even want to imitate. now that is real power!! that is superhuman power!! the power that never, ever, ever, once retaliated, not even in thought or desire!!







While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction. Thus the sacrifices and the ordinances designed of Heaven to reveal divine love have been perverted to serve as means whereby sinners have vainly hoped to propitiate, with gifts and good works, the wrath of an offended God.... {PK 685.2}
When God's written word was given through the Hebrew prophets, Satan studied with diligence the messages concerning the Messiah. Carefully he traced the words that outlined with unmistakable clearness Christ's work among men as a suffering sacrifice and as a conquering king. In the parchment rolls of the Old Testament Scriptures he read that the One who was to appear was to be "brought as a lamb to the slaughter," "His visage . . . so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men." Isaiah 53:7; 52:14. The promised Saviour of humanity was to be "despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; . . . smitten of God, and afflicted;" yet He was also to exercise His mighty power in order to "judge the poor of the people." He was to "save the children of the needy," and "break in pieces the oppressor." Isaiah 53:3, 4; Psalm 72:4. These prophecies caused Satan to fear and tremble; yet he relinquished not his purpose to thwart, if possible, the merciful provisions of Jehovah for the redemption of the lost race. He determined to blind the eyes of the people, so far as might be possible, to the real significance of the Messianic prophecies, in order to prepare the way for the rejection of Christ at His coming. {PK 686.1}




this is the power of God that i need!!

I didn't consider it a "you vs. me," but just proceeded in our analysis. I gathered together the first three plagues because they have something in common that the other plagues do not have - the mention of the magicians' attempt to imitate them. And in this there is an important aspect to consider in the attempt to define what God did and what Satan did. I was interested in how you see this episode. If it is interpreted just in terms of God removing His protecting hand, how do you explain Ellen White's comment, "Pharaoh called for the magicians to work with their enchantments. They also showed signs and wonders, for Satan came to their aid to work through them. Yet even here the work of God was shown to be superior to the power of Satan, for the magicians could not perform all those miracles which God wrought through Moses"? Notice that that the plagues are called "the work of God" and "those miracles which God wrought through Moses."
In another discussion I pointed out to Tom that I didn't see any sense in the devil imitating himself, and did not see any purpose in the Lord fobidding the devil to imitate himself.

your response seems to be very clear that you havent really read what i have posted.

I've read it, but maybe I haven't understood it (because I'm still not understanding what you mean). Anyway, could you provide your opinion about what I've asked?

but you didnt gather them together. you brought up ellen whites quote instead of looking at each plague individually. i dont have a problem with the quote, just wanted to really look at each situation.
so what did you think of this answer, or what did you not understand, from post #114866 or this one: #114872 in response to #114869


satan has immense power and control, but God has absolute power and control. satan can only work by permission of God and when we remove ourselves from Gods umbrella of protection.

God could literally turn the rod into a serpent, satan could only make it appear that rods had turned into serpents, by hypnotism i believe ellen white states elsewhere. which makes sense if he cant do it literally, but that is pretty powerful to be able to make people see something that isnt real.

God could create frogs, but satan could only make it appear that he-or the gods the egyptians worshipped- had created frogs. but the bible verse states that they caused frogs to come up from the river, so were the frogs there all along and God contained them at the river, but removed His protecting/holding back power and allowed them to overrun the place? our God controls satan but He also controls nature. i live in cali, earthquake country. if God didnt control the tectonic plates beneath our feet this state would have been long gone, or at least a fractured mess.

He lets go every once in a while in the hopes that we will remember that He is holding together and controlling nature, and will thank and praise Him, but we dont. He lets satan have more and more power, but we still dont go to Him in prayer for Him to "hold the winds" longer. we dont pray for God to work on hearts on our freeways, in our capitol, in the nations, and on-and-on.......