Hmm. What do the rest of you think?

I think this is easier to understand if one thinks about what is actually happening on earth.

The times of the refreshing apply to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which comes in the form of a message, the message which began in 1888 -- in other words, the Gospel. The Gospel prepares the harvest, which is to say, those who would stand in the day of God without a mediator. Those who receive the message of God will develop characters which can stand in the day of judgment. They will be settled in the truth.

Only *after* one has settled into truth can the records of the books of heaven record this fact. This is simple common sense. This is what the blotting out of sins represents -- the person's character has become so settled in truth that there is no chance that the sins which formerly appeared in the person's life can appear. Iow, they are blotted out.

So the timing described by Sister White, and Peter, makes perfect sense:

1.God sends a message to prepare the harvest, which is the Gospel, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This happens during the times of refreshing.

2.This message results in the settling into of truth, and removal of sin, for those who accept it.

3.While this happens, the investigative judgment of the living (which cannot happen until after the living are settled into truth) takes place.

4.After the examination of the evidence is complete, the books in heaven are closed, or, to say it another way, the sins of the living who have been judged are blotted out.

A little behind on this one.

Tom, your chase after reality mustn't forget that heaven rules over all. The books of heaven don't just record our choices: they also are premised on our Mediator's righteousness - and our choices about him. Since heaven leads us in following Christ, it is not we who initiate the changes in our record - even with us experiencing those changes, and so the records of heaven have precendence over our lives.

On blotting out of sin, I've always understood it to be the final blotting out of recorded forgiveness. It's not mere forgiveness and repentance which blots out recorded sins - since there is then a record of repentance, etc: the blotting out of our sinful record is surely the final cleansing of our characters as sin is removed from our lives. Blotting out is removal of record of sinful past, not removal of record of sinning itself, not so?

The records are just records. They don't have precedence over anything. They just record reality. The reality is what drives everything.

I agree completely that heaven initiates everything, and the records will record that as well.



Why would recorded forgiveness need to be blotted out?



This sounds like what I've been saying to me.



This is saying the same thing too, isn't it? Unless you mean something different than what I'm understanding. When you say the removal of sinful past, I'm assuming your talking in terms of character. Is that correct? In other words, our sinful past has been removed from our character. The records in heaven record that fact. The blotting out of the record reflects the blotting out that has taken place in the character.

Good on your second paragraph.

It's not just character changing for Christlikeness: it's also the legal record of forgiveness for our past, as we are regenerated in our present lives. Heaven's judgement involves both, but is based on the objective legal record as well as the regenerated subjective righteous experience of justification: that's our qualification for heaven, of course.

Heaven's legal process includes this judgement of the saints: a judgement based solely on what is in those books of record - as it says in Rev 20 & Dan 7. Our record there reflects our reality here - true, but, since heaven leads in all this, its judgement, which makes a precedent for all eternity - for God, Christ and the redeemed, means those books of record govern our lives. The heavenly records of our lives, led by Christ also in judging us, drive everything!



Tom, they're both saying the same thing, as below again. Our sinful record, as saints, is a record of forgiven sins. I wasn't crystal clear in that quote, anyway: forgiveness is recorded against our past sins we have confessed, constituting our "past, sinful record" - the word "past" added for precision. That forgiven past is indeed replaced in us by the righteous present of imputed mind and imparted character. That you don't think God himself needs an atoning sacrifice to be able to forgive us affects this point too, as our forgiven, past, sinful record is the primary basis (our regeneration is secondary, as part of our justification) of our qualification for heaven in God's judgement.

The rule of his law features here, in the judgement, in his just forgiveness of us - its penalty having been applied to our Substitute by him, not just our character reformation.


This is saying the same thing too, isn't it? Unless you mean something different than what I'm understanding. When you say the removal of sinful past, I'm assuming your talking in terms of character. Is that correct? In other words, our sinful past has been removed from our character. The records in heaven record that fact. The blotting out of the record reflects the blotting out that has taken place in the character. [/quote]

Yes, character change accompanies forgiveness, but forgiveness comes first, and characer change takes a while longer. You do see both being elements of the judgement analysis of the saints by Christ, don't you?

What do you all think this phrase means - "and our sins will go beforehand to judgment;". Sister White is quoting I Tim.

Below is quote from Ellen White that sheds light on the idea in I Timothy 5:24 of "sins going beforehand to judgment."

In Sister White's view, what she calls the 'judgment of the living' is that time when the individual's case is decided and the person's eternal destiny is irrevocably fixed or determined. In her understanding, this judgment takes place at a descrete point in time and is not a process. So the burden she had for the church was that now, during the anti-typical Day of Atonement, now, during the Investigative Judgment, the latter rain, sealing, measuring time, by deep confession and repentance our sins should go beforehand to judgment. In other words now is the time of measuring, investigative judgment and sealing. When the living are finally judged at the end, there is no further opportunity to develop character.

So I need to apologize and make it clear that Ellen White uses the term 'judgment of the living' differently from the way I used it earlier. It's important to use terms from another person in the way that they intend. So again, my apologies.

I hope though that that we'll take her urging to heart to study to know the times we're living in - the time of repentance when our sins can go beforehand to judgment.

Today I came across this fascinating vision on the measuring of the church.

I was fascinated by the test of the measuring angel in the above vision. Did you notice that he asks "Have ye received the Holy Spirit"? It sounds Penticostal to us doesn't it, but that's what he says. Tom, you were suggesting the latter rain began in 1888 but stopped or slowed. Have a look at this quote, which relates to the sentinal's test - receiving the Holy Spirit:


We need to be asking, have we recieved the latter rain, don't we?

the difference between the pentecostal spirit and the true HS is the results. the first is a counterfeit feel-good, demand- power religion. it does have high standards but without the true HS it is just legalistic and without meaning, demanding that the HS work whenever commanded. i have seen pentecostalists build themselves up into a frenzy. quite scary.

the true HS is a convicting, penitential Spirit. the aa 12-steps stresses humility and righting wrongs to maintain sobriety. i see very little of that stressed in the church. in fact i see the opposite encouraged. "im a christian/sda and proud of it." :0 when it should be, "Father, i fall so far short of the mark. i consistently misportray You in all i do."

our standard is quite low in light of this...