ok, we are jumping around to defend a general belief. i can see, and respect, that the effort is to defend the power of God as one sees it.

it just seems to me that the power we should be glorifying is Gods creative and protecting/restraining power, not His "destructive" power which is the one satan glories in. but the most important power of God that we are completely ignoring is the power of God as demonstrated in the Christ, Jesus.

the One Who turned the other cheek and commands us to do the same. i dont know about you, but that is one "power" i havent really been interested in, to put it mildly. in all honesty i have flat out refused it.

the power that returns good for evil. the power that loves those who are hurting me in whatever form, instead of the one calling down fire from God on them.

i suggest we all have that "destructive" power of God down to an art-form in some manner or other. how about the form where we "lovingly" judge and condemn another, even misrepresent them, because they believe differently than we do? ive seen that one a few times. (others arent so "loving" about it)

so God either created so many frogs they overran the place or He stopped holding them in their place. but the magicians made it appear that they could bring or create them also so it must have appeared much worse than it really was.....
Exo 8:3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
The frog was regarded as sacred by the Egyptians, and they would not destroy it; but the slimy pests had now become intolerable. They swarmed even in the palace of the Pharaohs, and the king was impatient to have them removed. The magicians had appeared to produce frogs, but they could not remove them. Upon seeing this, Pharaoh was somewhat humbled. He sent for Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the Lord, that He may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the Lord." After reminding the king of his former boasting, they requested him to appoint a time when they should pray for the removal of the plague. He set the next day, secretly hoping that in the interval the frogs might disappear of themselves, and thus save him from the bitter humiliation of submitting to the God of Israel. The plague, however, continued till the time specified, when throughout all Egypt the frogs died, but their putrid bodies, which remained, polluted the atmosphere. {PP 265.2}
The Lord could have caused them to return to dust in a moment; but He did not do this lest after their removal the king and his people should pronounce it the result of sorcery or enchantment, like the work of the magicians. The frogs died, and were then gathered together in heaps. Here the king and all Egypt had evidence which their vain philosophy could not gainsay, that this work was not accomplished by magic, but was a judgment from the God of heaven. {PP 266.1}
real frogs vs hypnotism.

im not sure if the second coming is considered as a "plague" or not. it is certainly a "woe" for the lost.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
the same thing happened on a smaller scale when God came down to mount sinai.
Exo 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exo 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
if God hadnt controlled how much the elements could fall apart it looks like the earth would have been destroyed when He came to sinai. but at the second coming He will control the devastation much less.

We need to study the pouring out of the seventh vial. The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. {Mar 280.1}
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

One could quote other texts, like Isa. 6:10. But scripture cannot contradict scripture, and the Bible says that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). Therefore, it's impossible that God does something to make men lose salvation.


Look, we will only have a clear view about the plagues when they happen, and it may even be that some will be the result of God permitting men to reap what they have sown. For instance, when I read the 4th plague, I think about global warming effects as a possible fulfillment of this plague. However, I don't think that all the plagues must be caused by Satan or by the effects of sin. I definitely think that the 7th plague, for instance, will consist in the commotions suffered by the earth as a result of the events which will attend Christ's coming.

From 1 Cor. 13 we learn



as well as



Since scripture cannot contradict Scripture, it's impossible that God does something contrary to what Jesus Christ revealed.





There's no inherent reason why the earth should suffer any sort of damage simply because its Creator is returning to it. The fact that it acts so weirdly, it seems to me, should be attributed to sin, as opposed to some arbitrary damage inflicted upon it by God.

In Romans Paul talks about how creation groans. Surely this groaning, and waxing old, is due to the effect of sin.

As I see it, the reference here is to the battle of Armageddon. Under the 6th plague the world is assembled for this battle, but it is fought under the 7th plague. This is the battle between Satan and his followers and God and His followers.

"When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be, in different lands, a simultaneous movement for their destruction. ... It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof. The people of God--some in prison cells, some hidden in solitary retreats in the forests and the mountains--still plead for divine protection, while in every quarter companies of armed men, urged on by hosts of evil angels, are preparing for the work of death. It is now, in the hour of utmost extremity, that the God of Israel will interpose for the deliverance of His chosen. ... With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. ... It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance" (GC 635, 636).

Jesus Christ revealed many things, both by His life and by His teachings. And one of the things is that if you have only two alternatives and both are bad, you should opt for the less bad.

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

This is what He sometimes has to do, too - opt for the less bad.


It is an effect of sin, but it is caused by the Creator's approaching of earth.

the problem is we are dealing with mindsets. for example the predestinarian. try to convince some that Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. doesnt mean just what it sounds like it means.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

so for them these are very clear. they dont know that God is very different than that. bible verses that might contradict that conclusion are explained so as to fit in with the conclusion.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

we know the the truth, some because we were raised knowing, some because they were shown. and some we take on faith because ellen white "said so".

so the same could be very true about "very clear statements" of ellen white that we are used to reading one way.

instead of, "does God destroy?", a better question might be, "how does God destroy?", what means does He use when He feels the need to act? i have drifted more to toms side of understanding-not completely-because of unrelated studies in dealing with a shepherds rod adherent. (he swears up and down he isnt sr but if one is teaching their beliefs, albeit with some variations, what else would s/he be callled?) in reading the destruction of jerusalem very carefully and the desolation of the earth, also very carefully, along with other relevant texts/statements relevant to ezekiel 9, my view changed as to what will happen at the second coming and just how much God is involved in the destruction that will happen.

but, she specifically refers to the 7th vial. the other is under the 6th vial.

see last paragraph of above post. in that study and subsequent ones im seeing how bad it will really be. beyond terrifying. on a regular, daily basis.

no offense meant to any here because im just discovering this myself, quite accidently, but we have the most superficial, and detached understanding........

This is where rebellion is overcome, right? And we're told that rebellion would not be overcome by force.





The less bad, in Jesus' case, was sin. The better choice was righteousness. So Jesus is teaching that we should choose righteousness over sin, even if this may be a painful choice.

The assertion that God has to make this same painful choice I agree with heartily.



I don't think the "less bad" choice that God is constrained to take every involves Him acting contrary to the principles of His government, such as using force or violence would be.



It sounds like you're agreeing with me, as I've been saying all along that it is an effect of sin. There's no reason at all that the Creator's returning to earth should cause it any problems. Clearly sin has done something to damage the earth.

Here's an analogy. Say a person is being gassed, so that when they breath they die. One could say, "it is an effect of the gas, but it is caused by their breathing." Yeah, that's true, in a way, but it kind of obscures the real point, which is that it's not breathing that is lethal, but the gas. Similarly for God to return to earth is as natural a function as breathing, and there's no more reason than His coming to earth should cause destruction than that breathing should.

The point about mindsets is well taken, as is the example of Calvinism. I'm trying to say the same thing in speaking of paradigms and Piaget.

You can't really cause a paradigm shift by proof texts, it seems to me. It seems to me the best proof texts can do is to open your mind to the possibility that just maybe something you had been rejecting might possibly be true. But really it's how one views God that shapes one's theology, it seems to me.

I know when studying to be an SDA, I believed in an immortal soul. When I considered the texts involved, I saw that there was a big stack on the SDA side, and a big stack on the non-SDA side. How was I to determine who was right? Weigh the stacks?

What was telling in my mind was what the different views said about God. In the one view, God would be punishing (torture, really) the wicked for all eternity. That just didn't seem like God to me, when I stopped to think about it carefully.

puts Him right in there with the papists and the people who experimented on the jews without anesthesia.

i was raised, up to a point, with the adventist understanding so that was my reality. when i realized that there were many texts that seemed to support an eternal burning hell i could understand better why some others had a hard time hearing the "good news". i finally realized it was better to acknowledge that those verses were there, that was their reality.

im still learning others have a different reality than mine and their reality wont change just because something is so clear to me.


something had to have happened somewhere because God, not just Jesus, came to visit adam and eve in the garden before sin and as far as we know the earth was trying to escape. Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.