Tom, I looked at your post you mentioned and remember your explanation of paradigms before. It's much like evolutionists. They come with an assumed presumption, then proceed to narrowly look for support and reject anything contrary to their presumption. As many do with similar quotes as the one you gave from Ellen White. They look at a narrow and presumed definition of "punish" and "deal with sin".

This would explain why people would agree with the quote about making God weaker. But it doesn't seem to me to explain how they could come up with it themselves. I could understand someone coming up with saying if you don't believe God will directly maim, torture, kill, or otherwise harm people, then you don't read the Bible, don't believe in God's "justice", but to almost word for word say, "make Him into a weaker Being" just seems too uncanny to be a coincidence.

In fact they *couldn't* from the third plague onward, and this is proof enough that the origin was supernatural and not natural. But what I meant was - the fact that they tried to imitate them means everybody saw the plagues as something only gods could produce.


As I have pointed out several times, God sometimes sends His judgments and even shortens the lives of those who can no longer be saved, in an attempt to bring back to their senses those who can still be saved. Ananias and Sapphira are an example of this. Other examples are the slaying of those who were joined to Baal of Peor; Nadab and Abihu; etc. Another reason why He can send judgments and even shorten the lives of incorrigible sinners is to protect His people and/or preserve His knowledge on earth. The Flood is an example of this; the slaying of the Assyrian army; the plagues. Pharaoh wouldn't have let God's people go without these judgments. Even when he did let them go, he later regretted his decision.
God sometimes shortens the life of incorrigible sinners in mercy to them and to the world.


No. Most of the times the Bible explains itself.
About David's numbering of Israel, for instance, 1 Chron. 21:1 explains 2 Sam. 24:1; about the bad things that happened to Job, Job 2:3 is explained by Job 1:12. About the destruction of Jerusalem, Matt. 24:15 and Dan. 9:26, 27 explain Matt. 22:7, showing that it was permitted, not caused by God, since the power which would destroy Jerusalem, under the control of Satan, would be the abomination of desolation.

Paradigms are an interesting thing. The Jews were so sure they understood what the Messiah's work would be about. They thought they understood what Christ's coming would be about. It strikes me as so ironic that the same issues confronting the Jews confront us now. There are the same misconceptions about Christ's work, and the same misconceptions about what His coming involves.

Piaget's research has helped me understand paradigms better. Before Piaget, the common idea was that children were like little adults, but Piaget theorized that children actually thought quite differently than adults, but that as you mature you forget how you used to think.

This is what a paradigm shift is like. You remember that you used to think differently, but you can't see things the way you used to, because your paradigm has shifted.

This has happened to me. I used to see things along the lines of the traditional view, in regards to the plagues. As my paradigm began shifting, it was important to me to examine each of the different incidents, and try to understand what was happening (I'm talking about incidents where God is presented as acting violently). But now, it just seems to obvious to me that God just wouldn't act in a way that if it weren't God would be characterized as "sadistic."

I see people defend their views by saying things like, "Anything God does is right, by definition" so the things which, if it were someone else, would be thought of as sadistic are brushed off as "OK" since it was God.

For me the "aha!" moment was realizing the significance of the thought of Jesus: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

Yes, God has and, no doubt, still does permit evil angels and the forces of nature to cause death and destruction. But the idea that this is the only way He permits "evil" to befall us, that He has never employed the forces of nature or commanded holy angels to cause death and destruction, forces unnatural interpretations of many Bible and SOP passages.

Also, yes, there are times when God simply ceases restraining the forces of nature and death and destruction naturally follow. But to suggest this means God did nothing to cause the resulting death and destruction forces yet another unnatural conclusion. Must we conclude the same thing when evil angels use the forces of nature to cause death and destruction? Does God cooperate with them by first ceasing to restrain the forces of nature so they can manipulate them to cause death and destruction?

Ellen White wrote:

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

Question - Do evil angels use the forces of nature to extract from unbelievers confession of God's power and greatness?

She goes on to say:

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction (NOTE - looks like we will not run out of oil before Jesus returns). As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

Observation - It is difficult to conclude that evil angels are responsible for the death and destruction described above. "God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it." To attribute these inspired passages to the work of evil angels seems daring to me. Reminds me of the following quote:

Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. They had committed the sin against the Holy Spirit, a sin by which man's heart is effectually hardened against the influence of divine grace. {PP 404.4}

Final observation - Giving evil angels credit for something God did yields unfavorable results.

I'm just using the word Ellen White used in the quote I provided: "The magicians failed to produce the miracle of the lice, and could no more imitate Moses and Aaron."
They obviously imitated by counterfeiting.


Whatever it was, we are told it was a stroke of a holy angel, not of Satan.


OK, it's clear Satan will be working destruction, but the events mentioned here and in other similar passages aren't the events described in the Bible as constituting the plagues.
Take the last plague, for instance, and you will see that it describes a series of commotions on earth which will attend Christ's coming. Do you think that these things will be produced by Satan?

"It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course. The streams cease to flow. Dark, heavy clouds come up and clash against each other. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory, whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying: 'It is done.' Revelation 16:17. That voice shakes the heavens and the earth. There is a mighty earthquake, 'such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.' Verses 17, 18. The firmament appears to open and shut. The glory from the throne of God seems flashing through. The mountains shake like a reed in the wind, and ragged rocks are scattered on every side. There is a roar as of a coming tempest. The sea is lashed into fury. There is heard the shriek of a hurricane like the voice of demons upon a mission of destruction. The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. Babylon the great has come in remembrance before God, 'to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.' Great hailstones, every one 'about the weight of a talent,' are doing their work of destruction. Verses 19, 21" (GC 636, 637).

This sort of begs the question, doesn't it? You claim it forces unnatural interpretations. That's because you have a certain paradigm. To one with another paradigm, the interpretations are not unnatural at all.

For example, consider the case of God's sending the fiery serpents upon the Israelites. To suggest that God didn't really send them, but actually simply removed His protecting hand, would be what you're terming a "forced" or "unnatural" interpretation of Scripture. Yet this is exactly what Ellen White says happened!

Similarly we read:



but the SOP says



which is another "forced" or "unnatural" interpretation.

Anyone reading these episodes from the paradigm I'm coming from, would find these interpretations by the SOP natural, and would simply comment "of course," and would not need to read the explanation from the SOP to know what was happening.

So one man's "forced" and "unnatural" is another man's "natural" or "but of course!"

No, the Bible generally explains itself, and the fiery serpents "sent" by God are explained by Deut. 8:15. So this is not a forced interpretation of Scripture.


No. The Bible itself makes this clear, as I've explained in my post # 115006 above.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
Job 1:14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
...
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. ...
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. And so completely will men be deceived by him that they will declare that these calamities are the result of the desecration of the first day of the week. From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be.--RH Sept. 17, 1901. {LDE 256.3}

I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed.--EW 36 (1851). {LDE 256.2}

reading this closely and prayerfully we see that moses and aaron were being accused of following satan, of calling on satan to destroy their enemies. they called the evil men good, and the righteous men they called evil, of satan.

It always explains itself. It does this by means of principles, not on a case by case basis. Above all, Jesus Christ is the explanation of Scripture. He is the crimson thread that binds it together.



To quote Dan. 9:26, 27 and Matt. 24:15 sure seems like a long way to me to go about this. To see how God feels about what happened from Scripture, all one needs to do is consider the following:



I can give other examples (of Scripture texts requiring "forced" and "unnatural" interpretations). For example, here's one:



I would come back to the same question I've been raising before, which is, what is it that make one even think that God is capable of doing the things ascribed to Him, according to the traditional view of the plagues?

For example, suppose you read somewhere that Ellen White had a secret affair. What would you think? No way!, right? Why? Because you have an idea as to her character, that she wouldn't act in such a way. Even if you read something from a reliable source, you would question it, and look for some other explanation.

Similarly, if we consider that Jesus Christ is a full and completely revelation of God (all that man can know of God was revealed by Him), then, on the basis of knowing Him, certain ideas regarding God's behavior can be ruled out on the face of it. For example, God is perfectly pure. Therefore any ideas of impurity regarding Him can be cast aside. Similarly, God is kind. Therefore any ruthless ideas can be cast aside.

Going back to the Piaget analogy. As mentioned previously, Piaget suggested that as children mature their way of thinking changes, but as we get older, we forget how we used to think. He designed experiments to demonstrate this.

One of them involved the idea that the shape of an object, such as clay, does not impact its mass. Certain children were shown two clumps of clay of equal mass and shape. It was demonstrated to them that their mass was the same by weighing the clay in front of them. Then one of the clumps was changed to a different shape. They were asked which clump would weigh more.

The children which had already learned the principle involved responded correctly, that the shape of the clay wouldn't change how much it weighed. Others, who hadn't learned the principle yet would respond incorrectly. The principle was explained to the one who didn't know it.

The experiment was repeated, with the experimenter secretly siphoning off some clay. When the clumps were weighed, and one weighed more than the other, the children who already knew the principle looked for where the experimenter was hiding the clay that had been removed. They knew some clay must have been removed, because they understood the principle. The other children were confused.

Similarly, to one whose paradigm is based on a certain principle (I don't know how best to label it, but something along the lines that Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God, or that God is exactly like Jesus Christ -- that when we've seen Him we've seen the Father) when such a one reads that God supposedly did some act which would be contrary to the principle involved, one looks for where the missing clay is hidden.