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Re: plagues
[Re: Rosangela]
#115073
06/24/09 10:57 PM
06/24/09 10:57 PM
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in my study of the bible/sop i have come to my own conclusions which may be similar to others. i have no problem whatsoever with those statements. i understood why God had to stop what was going on. i thought He took direct action, but was unclear generally as to what that direct action was/is. at first i thought He was angry and vengeful and destroyed at the drop of a hat. but as i studied longer i understood better what exactly upset God and why He felt the need to stop it. i still saw Him as angry but not as bad as before. now im starting to see Him as sad. im seeing a different side of God than ive ever heard, before. a Parent Who does not chastise in anger like we do, but One Who really does hurt more than i when "dishing it out". one thing i hate about discussions sometimes, is in trying to get my point across i find myself starting to defend a position i havent taken. then i have to back off the discussion and go into prayer. im trying to avoid being pushed into a position i havent taken. does God punish? yes, but how? is it in vengence and anger like we do? is it by allowing what He has restrained? and similar questions. so im going to explore the possibilities of how God deals with us til im settled in my mind one or the other. Since sin entered the universe, there is dirty work to be done. Sin must be dealt with. But if there is dirty work to be done, God takes the responsibility for it. He doesn't use Satan to do the dirty work for Him. This reminds me of the Jews. They use gentiles to do for them the things that they think would make them transgress the Sabbath. Their reasoning is the following: since the gentiles are already lost, they cannot become more lost than they already are. So they can transgress the law instead of the Jews, and do what the Jews need to be done but cannot themselves do. Well, God does not act like that. If there is dirty work to be done, God does not use Satan to do it for Him. And, in case He does use nature, it is just as a tool to fulfill His purposes.
Of course there are occasions when people's attitudes force Him to leave them to their own ways. But this should be distinguished from what is described above. There are occasions when God Himself intervenes to punish sin. ok, this is your perspective. i dont see God using satan to do His dirty work, but restraining him from the destruction satan wants to do. i do see Him using nature, no longer holding it together, to "punish" when needed. By leading Israel to this daring insult and blasphemy to Jehovah, Satan had planned to cause their ruin. Since they had proved themselves to be so utterly degraded, so lost to all sense of the privileges and blessings that God had offered them, and to their own solemn and repeated pledges of loyalty, the Lord would, he believed, divorce them from Himself and devote them to destruction. Thus would be secured the extinction of the seed of Abraham, that seed of promise that was to preserve the knowledge of the living God, and through whom He was to come--the true Seed, that was to conquer Satan. The great rebel had planned to destroy Israel, and thus thwart the purposes of God. But again he was defeated. Sinful as they were, the people of Israel were not destroyed. While those who stubbornly ranged themselves on the side of Satan were cut off, the people, humbled and repentant, were mercifully pardoned. The history of this sin was to stand as a perpetual testimony to the guilt and punishment of idolatry, and the justice and long-suffering mercy of God. {PP 335.2} i think there are statements like these that give a broader picture as to what is going on. i agree that W/who would be destroying is up for grabs, here. this, i think is the best representation of what im starting to see as going on. Here we find a representation of the people of God of today. As Joshua stood before the Angel, “clothed with filthy garments,” so we stand in the presence of Christ, clothed in garments of unrighteousness. Christ, the angel before whom Joshua stood, is now interceding for us before his Father, as he is here represented as interceding for Joshua and his people who were in deep affliction; and Satan now, as then, stands by to resist his efforts. {HS 154.2}...
This is the argument that he employs concerning God's people in all ages. He pleads their sinfulness as the reason why Christ's restraining power should not hold him back from exercising his cruelty upon them to its fullest extent. But to the accuser of his people the Saviour says, “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Have I not thrust my own hand into the fire to gather this brand from the burning?” {HS 154.4}
So long as the people of God preserve their fidelity to him, so long as they cling by living faith to Jesus, they are under the protection of heavenly angels, and Satan will not be permitted to exercise his hellish arts upon them to their destruction. But those who separate themselves from Christ by sin are in great peril. If they continue to disregard the requirements of God, they know not how soon he may give them over to Satan, and permit him to do to them according to his will. There is, therefore, the greatest necessity of keeping the soul free from defilement, and the eye single to the glory of God; of thinking soberly and watching unto prayer continually. {HS 154.5} this is how i am beginning to understand Christs mediatorial work. satan claims us because of our sins, but Christ turns to the Father and says dont let satan have them yet. they arent beyond hope yet.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Rosangela]
#115074
06/24/09 11:01 PM
06/24/09 11:01 PM
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And it was no less a mercy to the sinners themselves that they should be cut short in their evil course. Had their lives been spared, the same spirit that led them to rebel against God would have been manifested in hatred and strife among themselves, and they would have eventually destroyed one another.
after taking out others.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115095
06/25/09 03:53 PM
06/25/09 03:53 PM
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Brazil
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It doesn't make any sense to suggest that God would use Satan to restrain sin for Him. This certainly isn't anything I'm suggesting. And does He use nature for this purpose? In your "disagreement" you're agreeing with my point. You have the view that sin is basically innocuous, so some sort of artificial, imposed, manufactured, or arbitrary (however you want to label it) action must be taken against it because, in your view, God's simply ceasing from the actions He is taking to prevent the calamity that sin would cause is not sufficient. Tom, where have I ever said what you are suggesting - that sin is innocuous? As I said, I have always defended the opposite - that sin is so dangerous that it must be stopped. Just waiting for it to destroy itself can take too long. Your characterization of God's activity as "simply withdrawing one's attention" falls far short of accurately describing God's activity. God doesn't simply "pay attention" to things, but is active to ensure that, for example, one doesn't die, or the earth's orbit doesn't go off course, that nature doesn't go off kilter, etc. ???????????????? I was only addressing what you had said. Please read again what you wrote and what I said in reply: T: This is based on the idea that sin is basically innocuous. It has to be arbitrarily, or artificially, punished because simply withdrawing one's attention is not sufficient to cause the "dirty work" that needs to happen to happen.
R:I disagree. This is not based on the idea that sin is basically innocuous. The opposite is true. Sin is so dangerous that not restraining it in some cases may mean the perdition of many who could still be saved. In these occasions, simply withdrawing one's attention is not sufficient. The spread of sin must be immediately stopped.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115096
06/25/09 04:01 PM
06/25/09 04:01 PM
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Brazil
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now im starting to see Him as sad. im seeing a different side of God than ive ever heard, before. a Parent Who does not chastise in anger like we do, but One Who really does hurt more than i when "dishing it out". I'm in perfect agreement with that.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Rosangela]
#115097
06/25/09 05:09 PM
06/25/09 05:09 PM
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T:It doesn't make any sense to suggest that God would use Satan to restrain sin for Him. This certainly isn't anything I'm suggesting.
R:And does He use nature for this purpose? Yes, I believe so, in the manner I spoke of. Tom, where have I ever said what you are suggesting - that sin is innocuous? As I said, I have always defended the opposite - that sin is so dangerous that it must be stopped. Just waiting for it to destroy itself can take too long. It's not that you are directly saying that sin is innocuous, but in your point of view it's innocuous. That is, it's not destructive enough of itself to bring out the destruction of the one practicing it. God has to apply some "oomph" to it, to "get the job done," the "dirty work" as I think you put it. I think sin is capable of doing the "dirty work." All that's necessary is for God to not take the counteractive steps He takes, and all sorts of destruction/pain/death results. I was only addressing what you had said. Please read again what you wrote and what I said in reply: Ok, you're right. I know what I meant, after re-reading it, but I didn't choose my words well, as even I didn't know what I meant without thinking about it. So I can't blame you for being confused as to what I meant. Let me try to explain my thought more clearly. What I meant is that that God must take active measures to counteract the damage that sin would do if He did not take these counter measures. These counter measures encompass our own bodies, nature, and evil beings. If God relinquishes control in one of these areas, bad things results, such as we see in the accounts of Scripture.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115098
06/25/09 07:11 PM
06/25/09 07:11 PM
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Along the same lines as Tom just said, could Satan survive if God didn't explicitly keep him alive? That is, can evil exist on it's own?
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115100
06/25/09 10:34 PM
06/25/09 10:34 PM
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granted adam and eve didnt become evil such as satan, but their bodies did last almost a thousand years, so is there more to it?
God keeps our hearts pumping and and lungs breathing, so...
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115122
06/26/09 02:48 PM
06/26/09 02:48 PM
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first, i need to clarify what i mean by reading carefully and prayerfully. having been a lone student of the bible/sop i read, i supposed, carefully and prayerfully and saw what there was. but over time i would see things in both i hadnt seen before. we all do that. but since being online and having to deal with certain types i had to really read carefully and prayerfully each word in a much more serious manner in order to counter certain understandings. i picked up a lot more faster than ever before. Thank you for clarifying. M: So, it sounds like you agree with me that the 250 blamed/credited Moses and Aaron and Satan for something God did, namely, cause the earth to open up and swallow the rebellious.
t: no.
i mean just what i said before. sorry if i havent been able to make it clear.
lets try this. it may or may not work. who were moses and aarong following and obeying? themselves and satan, or God? God. Yes, the others assumed they were working with the evil one, but obviously they were wrong. Who do you think caused the earth to open up and swallow the rebellious? And, who do you think caused the fire that killed the 250? Finally, who do you think will cause the plagues that punish and kill sinners after probation closes?
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115124
06/26/09 02:55 PM
06/26/09 02:55 PM
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M: Why do you label it "force" and "violence"? Is punishment a form of force and violence?
K: My denseness must be getting in the way in understanding how you mean punishment could not be force or violence. Unless you mean punishment is something other than what is commonly understood. Could you elaborate? Welcome to D club. I agree with Tom in that it depends on how it is carried out. Unlike Tom, though, I also believe it depends on who carries it out. God cannot sin, therefore, whatever He does is right and righteous. His "strange acts" are not strange to the inhabitants of heaven. Who do you think caused the earth to open up and swallow the rebellious? And, who do you think caused the fire that killed the 250? Finally, who do you think will cause the plagues that will kill sinners after probation closes?
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115125
06/26/09 03:02 PM
06/26/09 03:02 PM
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M: Why do you label it "force" and "violence"?
T: Because what you wrote depicts force and violence. The earth opening up and swallowing the rebellious depicts force and violence? If so, who caused it to happen and why? What about the fire and the 250? And the plagues after probation closes? M: Is punishment a form of force and violence?
T: Not necessarily. It depends on the form of the punishment. If the punishment consists of forceful and violent actions, it would be. Please cite examples of divine punishment in the Bible that did not involve force and violence. 1. Why did God display His displeasure?
2. How did God display His displeasure?
3. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "the most striking manifestations of His power"?
T: I think the same principles were at work here as in the Destruction of Jerusalem. Please answer the questions in relation to PP 404. 4. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "they attributed them all to human or satanic agency"?
5. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan"?
6. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "declaring that through the power of the evil one"?
7. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men"?
8. What did Ellen White mean when she wrote "It was this act that sealed their doom"?
T: Those opposing Moses and Aaron thought they were in league with the devil. They sealed their doom by resisting the Holy Spirit, committing the unpardonable sin. This is all similar to what happened to Christ. He was accused of working in league with the devil. Once one identifies the voice of God as the voice of Satan, there's nothing more God can do for such a one, as the means of communication has been cut off.
Again, please answer the questions in relation to PP 404.
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