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Re: I have some questions [Re: kland] #115349
07/02/09 09:16 PM
07/02/09 09:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: kland
Yes Tom, I also enjoyed your references comparing God and Jesus.

Regarding genitive and dative, I found this at http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP208-4RevelationSpiritLord'sDay.htm
which told me more than I ever knew about it:
Quote:
This being so it should agree with its noun "hēmera" in both case and gender, and it does. Both are dative case, and both are feminine, confirming that this is simply an adjective describing the day, and is nothing at all to do with Jesus. John was in the Spirit on a lordly day.



What I cited above seemed to me to be saying was that the phrase "the day of the Lord" was already taken, so a new phrase was used. For "the day of the Lord" or "the Lord's day" one would ordinarily expect a genitive, not a dative. But as the genitive phrase already had a meaning, the dative was used instead. That's what it looked to me to be saying.

It would be akin to our saying "Lordly day" instead of "the day of the Lord" because the latter already had an eschatological meaning, and that's not what we wanted to convey.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: dedication] #115694
07/09/09 02:52 AM
07/09/09 02:52 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno


The question is: if the day comes thst they must take a flight, but it is Sabbath, what do you think they will do ar act?

When applied to us, when we pray that our flight don't fall on Sabbath, but in fact it still fall on Sabbath, what should we do?


Could it mean that we weren't praying?
And if we weren't praying -- maybe we weren't taking this seriously enough and won't "take flight" anyway?

If Christ says we are to pray that our flight is not in winter or on the Sabbath day -- don't you think He would answer the prayer?
God has promised to answer our prayers if we pray according to His will -- and in this case we know it is according to His will.


Good point! But, in any case, if even we had prayed, but the answer is not as what we want, and Sabbath comes in between, what is your choice?? To stay and die or to save your life?

I asked this because, some times it happens when I must work on Sabbath, eventhough I had prayed that my work would not fall on Sabbath day. I could not leave my job, because it is an all important job and everybody is looking for me. In fact, the job could not started or running without my presents. So, i have a responsibility, obligation to people of some institutions gathering together at the location, people who are engaged in this job, everybody with their own job and responsibility.

I think, my case could be compared with those who must flight but Sabbath comes in between. What is my choice? I preffer to serve the Lord, but I could not deny my responsibility and obligation to my job and people who needs me.

And the reality I did so far, I do my job! Is God happy with this? If I deny my job and serve the Lord, I am sure that I will lost my job from this big client. This time, I don't dare to face such risk.

In His love

Re: I have some questions [Re: Rosangela] #115695
07/09/09 02:57 AM
07/09/09 02:57 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So, we knew that Sunday is Kuriake, and "te kureakê hêmera" in Rev. 1:10 - means the day of the Lord, which falls on Sunday.
Why do we insist that it is not Sunday???


James,

Of course Kuriake as the name of Sunday was a name given by the Catholic Church, as in Portuguese and Spanish we have Domingo (from the Latin Dies Domini, or Dies Dominicus, “the Lord’s day”), and in Italian, Domenica, and in French, Dimanche.

And of course John just wrote kuriake hemera, which means "day of the Lord." The Catholic church fathers, over 50 years later, applied it to Sunday, but who said this was what John meant? If he meant that, as Bacchiocchi says, why in his gospel, which was written after the Revelation, he refers to Sunday as mia sabbaton, and not as kuriake hemera?


So, do you mean that John has wrote "Kuriake hemera" with Sabbath in his mind? Or he got his vision on a Sabbath day and wrote it "kuriake hemera"? Because in his epistle he wrote Mia Sabbathon isntead again "kuriake hemera"?

In His love

Re: I have some questions [Re: James Saptenno] #115704
07/09/09 11:30 AM
07/09/09 11:30 AM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,509
Midland
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
I preffer to serve the Lord, but I could not deny my responsibility and obligation to my job and people who needs me.
...
If I deny my job and serve the Lord, I am sure that I will lost my job from this big client. This time, I don't dare to face such risk.

I'm sorry.

That is so sad.




I think we've found the motive.
Sad.
frown

Therefore, no further point in discussing "kuriake hemera"...

Re: I have some questions [Re: kland] #115710
07/09/09 02:17 PM
07/09/09 02:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, are you considering refusing to imitate Jesus' example of Sabbath-keeping and conducting business on the His holy day? Can you expect God to bless your business against His will?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Green Cochoa] #115754
07/10/09 09:18 AM
07/10/09 09:18 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
The "Lord's Day" in the scripture can mean one of at least three things, two of which are considered as a "Sabbath" and the third is unspecified:

1) A literal Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week. See Mark 2:27-28.
2) A millennial "Sabbath" day. See 2 Peter 3:8-13.
3) The literal day of the Lord's return, i.e. "Second Coming."

The phrase "Lord's Day" is never applied in the Scriptures to a specific weekly day except for the seventh-day Sabbath. In fact, except for named feast days or holidays, none of the days of the week is ever referred to by name except for the Sabbath, which is consistently the seventh day of the week. As I understand, the Hebrews gave only numbers to the other days, such as "first day", "sixth day", etc.

There is no Biblical reason to commemorate the first day of the week. While many people like to think it should be a memorial of Christ's resurrection, even in death, Jesus kept the Sabbath holy, and never once did He ask His followers to think of His resurrection day, nor to memorialize it in any way.
There may be an important point here. While Jesus did not ask his disciples to think of His resurrection DAY, He did ask them to think of His resurrection. The early christians thought it good to devote a day to this task given by the Lord.
Quote:

That the law is not changed is evident by the fact that Jesus kept the seventh-day Sabbath and proclaimed that He had not come to change the law, his disciples kept the Sabbath even after Jesus' death and resurrection, and there is no biblical command to keep any other day holy.

"The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath." Mark 2:28

Mark 2:27-28 are Jesus' own words. He proclaimed Himself "Lord of the Sabbath." That the Sabbath is His day should be evident from this, and John the Revelator wrote accordingly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: I have some questions [Re: vastergotland] #115756
07/10/09 12:55 PM
07/10/09 12:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"The early christians thought it good to devote a day to this task given by the Lord."

Thomas, did they also think it good to abandon the Sabbath day?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #115846
07/11/09 02:00 PM
07/11/09 02:00 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Good question. At some point they must have done so, for the simple reason that the Sabbath day was abandoned.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: I have some questions [Re: vastergotland] #115862
07/11/09 09:31 PM
07/11/09 09:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"The early christians thought it good to devote a day to this task given by the Lord."

Thomas, did they also think it good to abandon the Sabbath day?
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Good question. At some point they must have done so, for the simple reason that the Sabbath day was abandoned.

One misstep leads to another.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #115872
07/12/09 07:56 AM
07/12/09 07:56 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, are you considering refusing to imitate Jesus' example of Sabbath-keeping and conducting business on the His holy day? Can you expect God to bless your business against His will?


I don't refuse to imitate Jesus, but I could not abandon my responsibility and obligation to my job while many people were connected to it and could not go further without my presence.

In fact, God did a miracle at that day (Sabbath morning, while I was working at the site of job), which became my witness on Wednesday evening pray in the church.

The miracle happened after I had tried and did all posible way to overcome an obstacle that could become very dangerous and could ruin the whole preparation job that have been taken by my team and had cost a lot, but at the end, I gave up. I just pray to God, my Almighty God that loved me, please put this obstacle away and let the whole operation be running well, smooth, safe and all in order.

And what happened when the operation started!! Nothing happens, the obstacle had been removed, all was going fine and well and safe until we completed the whole operation.

I knew that I have a good God that loved me, an Almighty God that nothing is impossible for Him, even I did this job on his Sabbath day, but he knew better my situation, my reason then any other human being. His blessing for my job and the miracle that he has done, even though it was Sabbath day, gave me the assurance what a wondeful and lovely God, I had,... better we had.

In His love

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