I've made clear I'm not referring to legal aspects but to physical sensations, and in this respect there is no difference between "natural" and "violent" deaths.


I'm referring to conscious deaths. But since you consider that death during sleep is painless, do you now believe that it was the angel of God who killed the 185,000 soldiers in the Assyrian army?


What about Ananias and Sapphira?

So?



Your questions and points seem to be coming out of left field. I don't follow your reasoning. I've laid out in several posts on this thread in detail where I'm coming from. I'll write another post after this post to put forth some more ideas that hopefully will be helpful insofar as what I'm trying to say.



I'm not excluding them or anybody. I don't believe that God kills people or inflicts them with disease to work His purposes. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. Force and violence come from Satan's kingdom, not God's. I believe these methods are completely foreign to the way God does things.

There are a number of things God does to ensure that we live and are in good health. He manages nature, including astronomical issues (keeping the earth on its orbit) and geological (pressures having to do with the earth, climatology, etc.) beasts large, small, and microscopic, and so forth.

God manages our "organisms" (to use the Portuguese term).

God prevents evil beings, whether human or angelic, from harming us.

God prevents us from suffering accidents.

I think this covers all the bases, but there may be something I'm leaving out.

What I believe is that God "kills" by removing His protecting hand, which results in one of the above happening. The bad things from one of the above happening may result in violent painful death, but this is not something which God is directly causing. It is something which He allows, which is far different.

Here's an example. Say you have a child, and the child wants to leave home. The child is too young, so you don't permit it. At some point, the child becomes old enough, so you permit it. Something bad happens to the child. This is not the same as if you did something bad to the child yourself. This is analogous to what I see happening in the cases where God "kills" people.

I don't believe God kills people by Himself acting violently. I don't believe God has a violent bone in His body. I believe violence is something entirely foreign to God, and it would be as impossible for God to act violently as it would be for Him to lie, for example. Violence is as foreign to His kingdom as deceit is.

true, but then again he didnt say if he felt his death was violent or not. he was sick so maybe it did.

thank you, i will when i can.
that could be done, but i think it relates to this topic, also, in that we are talking about restraining vs inflicting, i believe.


back to the op, if possible.
here it appears to come from the Father.

here it appears to come from satan. (an integration of gc and sp).

does this one tie the two different pictures together?


there are more statements (and probably some i havent discovered yet)that can also be added.

I think the SOP says something about this.

John 16:2.


Does God punish by withdrawing His protection? If so, who or what is responsible for causing the punishment?


I agree. And, we should probably base such studies on the assumption God is love and that He never does anything contrary to the truth.


Yes. Please consider the story of Korah in the Bible.


Yes. The following story of the 250.


Does this plague cause anyone to die? But to answer your question, no, I don't think God is the evil spirits that come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast, or false prophet. Instead, I believe God dispatched the 6th angel who poured out the 6th vial. Do you agree?


Amen!

You didn't answer the question - Who caused it to happen and why?


You didn't provide an example of God punishing sinners without using force or violence. Yes, you said evil beings resort to force and violence when God withdraws His protection, but my question doesn't concern such examples. BTW, do you know of examples of God withdrawing His protection and evil beings using force and violence?


You didn't honor my request.


My paradigm allows me to take God at His word. When the Bible says God did something, I take it to mean 1) He either caused it to happen, or 2) He commanded holy angels to do it, or 3) He permitted evil angels to do it. Your paradigm seems to disallow the first two possibilities.

This is addressed to everyone reading this thread:

Isn't it clear in Rev 15 & 16 that it is God who will command holy angels to pour out the seven last plagues?

Those who refused God's protection caused it to happen by forcing God to withdraw His protection.



I pointed out I didn't think you were asking the right question, and explained why.



Yes, there are many. The destruction of Jerusalem is one. The crucifixion of Christ is another. Job is another.



In the past we've gone over these things in great detail, and I can't see that it's resulted in anything positive. It seems to me the reason why is that this approach is scratching where it doesn't itch. I think Teresa's explanation regarding Calvinism was excellent.

That is, if you look at Romans 9, it talks about how God unilaterally selected Jacob but rejected Esau. To a Calvinist, this is irrefutable evidence that God is alone responsible for who is saved and who is lost. Someone from our perspective looks for an alternative way of understanding this text. What drives how the text is interpreted, and similar texts, is our paradigm. We cannot divorce how we interpret Scripture from our paradigm.

So whether the destruction of the people you mentioned because God withdrew His protection in the realm of nature or the realm of evil beings is immaterial. That He didn't directly do it I derive Jesus Christ's revelation of God, as well as from the principles laid out by the SOP in regards to His character.



I think this statement betray a lack of acuity. Anyone with any paradigm can make this claim, and many people sincerely believe they are doing so, even when they have views such as that God will torment (or, perhaps more accurately, torture) people for all eternity.



Not at all. For example, the Bible says God created the universe. I believe God did this.

There are many things that Bible says God did or commanded holy angels to do which I believe were done.

In regards to 3), I don't think this is comprehensive enough. Post #115246 brings out some other salient possibilities.

I don't think God directly does or did anything contrary to what Jesus Christ revealed of God in His life and teachings while here with us in the flesh. I think His was a full and complete revelation of God. Setting people on fire, for example, I perceive to be contrary to Christ's teachings.



It's as clear as Scripture is that God destroyed Jerusalem, or that He killed Saul, or that He sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites, or that He sent evil spirits to lie to Ahab, or that He will send strong delusion, or that He moved David to number Israel.