No, that's not how I think. Here's how I think.

Jesus Christ said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The SOP says that all that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son.

A number of years ago, after I had been posting here for awhile, the statements, the two of them, made a profound impression on me. It became clear to me that I had ideas of God that could not be defended on the basis of these principles. So I started to rethink how I thought of things.

What I've been suggesting is that if Ellen White is correct in asserting that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son, then two things follow:

1.If we want to understand God, studying the life and character of Jesus Christ is the logical place to start.

2.If we come across something which is contrary to what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character, that something must be wrong.

i was asking a question. the next part of the question was the second part of the quote. it was actually intended as a friendly point to consider by all parties.the first sentence might be a give-away. but i was doing a couple of other things and didnt have time to think of a better way to phrase, if there was one.

the points you brought up were good ones. but both your and arnolds responses only dealt with the first part of the quote and not in respect to the plagues which i asked. nor did it take into account the second part of the quote since you were going off in other directions. "He doesnt work against His laws yet they are His servants."

we have to actually start thinking about Jesus and how He lived here, through the bible/sop, to have an idea what you are talking about. otherwise you are talking to the air.

Teresaq, thank you for addressing my questions and comments. I have studied the plagues in the Rev fairly extensively. The GC and LDE contain excellent info and insights on the topic. My studies have led me to conclude that literal holy angels will cause the forces of nature to cause death and devastation. It is also evident in the SOP that evil angels will be permitted to wreak havoc as well.

I also agree with you that Jesus did not withdraw His protection and permit sinners to suffer and die. Tom believes Jesus demonstrated/revealed everything there is to know about the God of the OT. The fact Jesus did not employ the withdraw and permit method of allowing death and destruction is evidence Jesus did not reveal "everything" there is to know about the God of the OT.

Tom, you're right, we've attempted to discuss this topic in the past, but you have yet to plainly state your position. From what I can gather, you seem to think God holds 1) evil men, 2) evil angels, and 3) the forces of nature in check until such time sinners no longer deserve His protection. Do I understand your position correctly?

Regarding the plagues - I have no idea how you think they will play out.

And, as to whether or not I think Jesus employed the withdraw and permit method of allowing death and destruction, the answer is - No. I do not view the cross as an example.

What you said doesn't seem to be materially different from what I said; you just used different words.

Let's take it a piece at a time. You talked about "what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character." Does that include anything that is not in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? If some aspects of "what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character" can be found outside of the Gospels, please tell me where.

Assuming that "what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character" is all in the Gospels, it still looks to me like your 2 points can be worded this way:

1. If we want to understand God, start in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

2. If we come across something which is contrary to how Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John described Jesus, that something must be wrong.

We must keep in mind that what we understand from studying Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John might not be all there is in there. It is possible that there are things in there that we have not yet learned.

We never deserve His protection. From GC 35:



This speaks of causing the protection of God to be withdrawn. This is what I believe happens. When God withdraws His protection, bad things may happen. This should not be misconstrued as God's desiring that these bad things happen.



The think the following is a good indication of how things will play out in general terms:





I have never used the phrase "employed the withdraw and permit method of allowing death and destruction." This is your invention. I personally do not care for it.

This isn't what I was asking you. You asked me for an example of Jesus' doing something you saw God doing. At least, that's what I think you were doing. So I asked you for one.

yes, i have/had generally the same conclusions but am studying deeper, now. i dont see literal holy angels inflicting anything, tho.

our rivers and streams, for example, are becoming polluted and if it werent for laws we would have little drinking water. when Jesus leaves the sanctuary and the restraint is taken off evil men, i can see the owners of factories and such making deals with our lawmakers to do away with these laws. then take into account droughts....is that the way it will happen? well know soon enough.

Jesus couldnt withdraw His protection because He wasnt exercising His powers. what does ellen white have to say about that? i dont understand, my brother. are you saying ellen white meant Jesus only came to show us one side of the Father, one part, the "nicey-nice" side?

in my study of the ot i came to generally the same conclusions as the gentler ones on this board, that God did indeed inflict mortal injury on people for various reasons. others call it "putting people to sleep", since they will be resurrected.

but keeping in mind other counsel by ellen white, that it hurts us not at all to investigate others positions, i am willing to rethink and restudy, which means looking at more than i was looking at before. it means much more thorough searching and praying and not to justify my position.

i take these thoughts extremely seriously!!

But you have to consider the whole picture. This includes, for instance, the driving of the moneychangers from the temple, which shows that God sometimes manifests His wrath actively (not just passively, "abandoning" the sinner). As I said once, "God is love" is not the same as "God is nice" ("Deus é bonzinho"). The Christ you portray to me is one who will not judge men, one who will not make any difference between righteous and wicked on the Day of Judgment, but one who will be smiling to all, without showing in His countenance any abhorrence for sin.

But this is not the picture we find in the driving of the moneychangers from the temple.

"And Jesus entered the temple of God and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons" (Matt. 21:12).

"And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, 'Take these things away; you shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade'" (John 2:15, 16).

As He beholds the scene, indignation, authority, and power are expressed in His countenance. DA 157

The Majesty of heaven stands as the Judge will stand at the last day,--not now encircled with the glory that will then attend Him, but with the same power to read the soul. - p. 158

With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers. - Ibid.

Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor. - Ibid.

The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire. With authority He commanded, "Take these things hence." John 2:16. - p. 591

God manifests His wrath actively because He is love - and love cannot let His creatures think that sin is something trivial.

Yes, God shows, both to those who reject Him, and to those of future generations who must be warned, that sin is offensive in His sight, and that He won't permit it to go on forever, and that those who reject His grace and disregard His warnings cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely to live in sin. This is the message conveyed by the episodes of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the plagues of Egypt.

Of course God loves those who will be lost, and suffers for them - but He loves His creatures - all of them - too much to not make His abhorrence of sin manifest to the universe.

Tom,

Just as with the Bible, one cannot be balanced by pulling a viewpoint from one text or passage alone, so also with Ellen White. She has much to say, and there are balancing statements for many of her thoughts which were presented at the edges. If we were to imagine the truth as a coin, in which the very center of it bore the image of Christ, and His love, we might come close. There are edges to that coin which are not in the center. They also present truth. They are yet part of the body of truth, though they are not its heart.

The Gospels, and the life of Christ, may be the heart of truth--but they are not complete by themselves. Now, to balance that quote of Mrs. White which you have brought are other statements which help to define the one you are so interested in. I am certain that you will agree with the truthfulness of her pen. So, while your view may remain the same, I hope that you can understand where many of the rest of us have understood differently.

You said:


I say this: "The life and character" of Jesus included more than 33 years.

How long has Jesus lived?
How long has Jesus had His character?
Forever? From "everlasting to everlasting"?

Tom, if I were to accept your view, that not until Christ was born in Bethlehem and He lived on earth was His character truly revealed, then I would have to feel that God had not dealt fairly with His people prior to that. But I do not see it so. Here is what Mrs. White says:


In fact, it has ALWAYS been Christ, throughout earth's history, who has appeared and taught us.


And finally, it was Christ who presented His character to the people from Sinai.


In short, Christ was the God of the Old Testament. The two Testaments have the same God, have been shown the same character (for God's character does not change--Mal. 3:6), and people have always had access to Salvation through Christ.

Christ revealed His character to Israel via Moses upon the Mount:


In other words, Christ's "life and character" have long been revealed. This last quote went so far as to say even the "glorious ideal of character" was revealed. That should be of interest to you, Tom.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.