Yes.



No.



Sodom and Gomorrah.



If this question is in reference to 14 MR 3 (which appears immediately above it) yes. If this is a more general question, encompassing all of the Bible and the SOP, it's too vague.

At any rate, I'd ask you to re-read what I wrote earlier in the thread. I laid out my position in detail. Please read the detailed explanations, and if you would like some further explanation of something stated there, I'd be happy to respond. If you'd like, I'll find the explanations, and repost them for you.



I agree with what Teresa has been saying.



As you put it here, I agree with it. The other way you put it makes it sound like something God is wanting to accomplish (i.e. employing a method).



Because it conveys the false idea that God is desiring that the death and destruction take place.



This question doesn't make sense to me. Does it make sense to you?



Yes.



He's preventing them from death, the inevitable result of sin. I'm surprised you would ask this, MM, as I've presented the following quote for you countless times:





Here's what you asked me:



You asked for an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection, while here in the flesh, and permitting evil men or angels to cause death and destruction. I gave the cross as such an example. The death and destruction caused was first of all that to Jesus Christ Himself. The after-effect was death and destruction to themselves, and to their children.

Tom,

Where in this quote does it say that this revelation comes ONLY from the Christ's earthly ministry?



Mrs. White is not speaking exclusively here, but inclusively. She is saying that of all the truth one might collect from all possible sources, the truth brought by Jesus is sufficient, and indeed, one cannot surpass this knowledge. What she does NOT say is that the truth which Jesus taught by His life here is not revealed before or since from any other source. That would be exclusive.

It's like going to school--there is a book out titled something like "All I ever needed to know I learned in Kindergarten." The book details how the author learned to play fair, get along with others, eat right, stay clean, obey the teacher, etc. (I don't remember all the details, but they were not the scholastic points one might think school was for).

Now, let's just suppose that Kindergarten taught all of the essential core values in life, and that, indeed, as far as core values goes, nothing else that one learned later could really add to them. In such a case, would not the title of this book be true? However, would it be saying that if one never attended Kindergarten, they would never learn life's core values? Of course not.

To Moses was revealed Christ's character, well before His incarnation, and that one point should be sufficient to tell us that God's character has been on display throughout history.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It would seem to me rather arrogant of you to think you are capable of setting yourself in such a way to pass judgment on me. Is this what you're doing? Or did not you mean to say what it sounds like you are saying?

I disagree with some of the things you say, but I have no idea if you are rejecting light or not, or if you would if you were living in some other time, nor would I dare to make such a judgment. I'm determined to put you in the most favorable light possible, and assume that you are sincerely looking for truth, and if you don't see something which I see that is true, the reason for that it not because of some character defect, but simply a lack of perception.



You can't possibly know what I would have done in such a circumstance. For one thing, my whole world view would have been different if I had lived in such a time and culture.



Since it "doesn't do it" for you, how would it be possible to offer a good explanation? Could anyone (and I mean anyone) offer a good explanation if this doesn't "do it for you"?



What I've been saying is that I don't believe it's possible to understand what happened in these events by going about it the way you are suggesting. I've been saying, repeatedly, in every post, that I believe to that understand God's actions here what is necessary is to build a foundation based on a study of Christ's life and character. So if what I've been claiming is true, then why would I act contrary to what I've been claiming to be the case?

That is, to make this clear, if I really believe that to understand God's actions in the stories you are mentioning, it is necessary to first have an understanding of God's character based on a study of Christ's life and character, why would I bypass completely Christ's life and character and try to offer an explanation to the stories your are mentioning? Wouldn't this be acting completely contrary to what I'm advocating?



We're given clear answers to these questions. If you wish to start a thread about them, we could discuss it. I don't see how this ties into the fact that if we wish to understand God's character, the appropriate foundation is a study of Christ's life and character.



I don't think this is the issue here. I think the issue is one of darkness through misapprehension of God, to use Ellen White's expression, and that the solution is that which she pointed out:



Please notice that there was only One who could do this, and it wasn't done until He did it!

it seems like nit-picking and trying to avoid the point being made, to me. nor do i know of any time when it was stated that the incarnation was the only time God revealed Himself.

i understood what tom meant since id read ellen whites statements myself. that you dont agree with toms general understanding is fine, you have that right. but what i see as 'raping' the scriptures/sop, to counter him, not only makes no sense to me, it makes me want to run far away so as not to be infected.

this is how i understand toms point.

He declared that they had rejected the word of God, inasmuch as they had rejected Him whom God had sent. "Ye search the Scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of Me." John 5:39, R. V. {DA 211.4}
In every page, whether history, or precept, or prophecy, the Old Testament Scriptures are irradiated with the glory of the Son of God. So far as it was of divine institution, the entire system of Judaism was a compacted prophecy of the gospel. To Christ "give all the prophets witness." Acts 10:43. From the promise given to Adam, down through the patriarchal line and the legal economy, heaven's glorious light made plain the footsteps of the Redeemer. Seers beheld the Star of Bethlehem, the Shiloh to come, as future things swept before them in mysterious procession. In every sacrifice Christ's death was shown. In every cloud of incense His righteousness ascended. By every jubilee trumpet His name was sounded. In the awful mystery of the holy of holies His glory dwelt. {DA 211.5}
The Jews had the Scriptures in their possession, and supposed that in their mere outward knowledge of the word they had eternal life. But Jesus said, "Ye have not His word abiding in you." Having rejected Christ in His word, they rejected Him in person. "Ye will not come to Me," He said, "that ye might have life." {DA 212.1}
The Jewish leaders had studied the teachings of the prophets concerning the kingdom of the Messiah; but they had done this, not with a sincere desire to know the truth, but with the purpose of finding evidence to sustain their ambitious hopes. When Christ came in a manner contrary to their expectations, they would not receive Him; and in order to justify themselves, they tried to prove Him a deceiver. When once they had set their feet in this path, it was easy for Satan to strengthen their opposition to Christ. The very words that should have been received as evidence of His divinity were interpreted against Him. Thus they turned the truth of God into a lie, and the more directly the Saviour spoke to them in His works of mercy, the more determined they were in resisting the light. {DA 212.2}

oh, whats the use. continue in your own way.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

[quote]When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.....{GC 627.3}

While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when Jesus stepped out from between man and the Father,
the restraint was removed, and Satan had the control of man.

It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the Sanctuary; but as his work there is finished, as his intercession closes,

there is nothing to stay the wrath of God,
and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation, and hated reproof.{1SG 198.1})

“The Lord hath a controversy with the nations;” “he will give them that are wicked to the sword.” {GC88 656.1}

“And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.” [Zechariah 14:12, 13.]

Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}

"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}

actually we have had a very noticeable "object lesson" that comes and goes on this very board and proves this very point.

his "god" would behave that way, so it is quite ok for him to.

you might not have wanted to share that. i, for one, find it rather telling. well, aside from that, ive found that if i ask God He is more than happy to explain. i have quite liked His "bible studies". so try it, please. no sense you living in continued misery, depriving yourself of something you want very much. but that is how i look at things. id rather serve God because i want than because im "supposed" to.

thats too bad you dont know why because we are told why. no questioning of God needed here. the info was given freely, that we might understand.

now whether we like the reasons given is another subject all together.

if love were sexual in nature it would make pedophilia perfectly acceptable.

Sorry I am not able to post more often, but as I get closer to my surgery next Thursday other things seem to be taking my attention. This may be one of the last posts on this topic for me until the surgery is over and I can get back home which may take up to a month at least.

There are a few verses in Revelation I would like to share:

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

For me the idea of the Lamb having wrath and make war seemed a contradiction of ideas and character.

How does one begin to relate to one that was meek and lowly to one that is powerful and has wrath be the same Lamb?

Are we talking about two different God's here? Is it possible for the Lamb to have wrath and make war?

I was always told the God of the OT was a God to be feared and was legalistic in character and was far removed from us, whereas with Jesus we have a picture of a loving and caring Father who desires us with all His passion.

Then we see a sharp turn of God in the book of Revelation that seems to go against everything Jesus told us about the Godhead.

Are either one absolutes or does God have different manifestations of His character depending on the situation in which He finds Himself having to deal with mankind?

Death is not natural, but it is a consequence of sin. We were not created to die, but to live eternally.

We also have the issue of the first and second death. I am reminded from Scriputre in Matthew:

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Them "them" are Satan, fallen angels and men, but the "Him" is God. This Second Death falls under the power that God has as God and the right to give life as well as take it.

To cosign the plagues as something someone else does other than God is to take from God/Lamb that which belongs to the Godhead, and that is His Wrath.

then how do you deal with ellen whites account as well as the biblical one in post #115452?

in relation to certain of the verses you posted you left out important ones,

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
(in connection with the ones you posted)
and then, and this is very important,Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.