The fact that God can take evil and accomplish His purposes from it should not be misconstrued as God's either being responsible for the evil or causing it. This is the mistake that Calvinists make.

Inspiration frequently attributes to God things which He permits. But God is good, and can only do, or purpose, good.

A study of the life and character of Jesus Christ provides a good framework to understand the good things which God does, and how God responds to evil.

Tom, this thread concerns the plagues described in Rev 15 and 16. I hear you saying you believe these two chapters symbolize the outcome of evil men tampering with nature in such a way that the things described therein play out accordingly. My question, then, is - Where else in the Bible are holy angels from the temple of God in heaven symbolic of evil men on earth causing evil things to happen? I realize the holy angels in Rev 14 symbolize holy men doing holy things on earth.

Teresaq, would you mind posting the quotes from the SOP which verify the idea that the plagues in Rev 15 and 16 symbolize evil men doing things that cause the plagues to play out according to the description in the prophecy?

That's news to me. On the basis of what that I've written did you come to this conclusion?



First of all, let me make clear that I've not suggested the interpretation you attributed to me. But, setting that aside, I can comment on your question, which is in regards to what the holy angels in Revelation represent in Rev. 15 and 16.

I think the holy angels in heaven in Revelation represent the ceasing of the restraining work that these angels do.

In general, to understand the plagues I think it's necessary to have a foundation of God's character based the life and character of Jesus Christ.

How did Jesus Christ deal with evil men who rejected Him?

OK, but in this case nobody would describe this by saying that their breathing function killed them. Nobody would even think of that.
According to this analogy Ellen White would be completely wrong in saying that the glory of God slays the wicked and destroys them.
Besides, sinners interact with God before His glory ceases to be restrained. They even watch Christ's coronation and knee before Him. And it's God who ceases to restrain His glory knowing that His glory will kill them - something which could be avoided. So a better analogy here would be taking an asthmatic person, extremely allergic to flowers, and bringing him to an immense flower garden. What will kill the asthmatic person? His allergy or the garden? Isn't it both? The garden wouldn't have killed him if he wasn't allergic, and his allergy wouldn't have killed him if he hadn't been brought to the garden.

There must be some reason you're asking this question, MM. Would you please quote whatever it was you read that made you think this is an appropriate question. I'm not saying it's not, since you're asking about a point of view which isn't mine but Teresa's, and I might have missed something. I don't recall reading something which would warrant this question, however, which is why I'm asking you to post whatever it was that made you think of it.

Thank you.

(The following are excerpts from "Is God to Blame" by Greg Boyd)

This is the foundation of all sin: the lie that God is untrustworthy, the lie that God is not altogether loving and that He doesn't have our best interests in mind. Adam and Eve came under the grip of this deceptive picture of God. At that moment they stopped trusting God as their source of life. Consequently, they saw themselves as deficient...

A faulty picture of God led to an ungodly evaluation that in turn brought about a rebellious action...The lie created an emptiness as well as the futile and rebellious means of filling it. A false concept of God, and therefore of herself, gave birth to sinful behavior, which in turn brought about spiritual and physical death (see Jas 1:14-16)...

Just as the foundation of all that separates us from God is a false picture of God, so too the foundation of all that restores our innocent communication iwth God is a true picture of God. So everything hangs on the question, Where do we find the true picture of God? The answer that the Bible unequivocally and emphatically gives is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the truth that dispels the serpent's lie...

When God thinks, John is saying, it is Jesus. And when God expresses Himself, it is Jesus...wherever and whenever God thinks and expresses Himself, it is Jesus Christ.

Moreover, it has been this way throughout eternity...

This means that in knowing, we are not knowing someone "one step removed" from God. in knowing Jesus we are knowing God Himself, God in His eternal essence. In seeing Jesus, we are seeing the very heart of God...

Whereas the enemy covered up the true God in a veil of deceptive darkness that brought death, Jesus turns the light on so we can see who God really is. In doing this, Jesus gives life...

Only the revelation of God in Christ completely dispels all forms of the lie we have been deceived into believing. When our picture of God is built on any foundation other than Jesus Christ...we will be vulnerable to believing a lie about God... We will embrace a god that is consistent with our jaded presuppositions and fallible expectations, which keep us in bondage to the serpent's lie. Our understanding of God, ourselves, suffering and every other aspect of creation will be to some extent corrupted...

Idolatry takes place when we don't allow God to define Himself for us in Christ but rather embrace a picture of God on the basis of our life experiences, philosophical speculations or non-Christ-centered interpretations of Scripture...

All we can and need to know about God is found in Christ, for God fully dwells in and is revealed in Christ...

Christ was not an innocent third party who was punished against His will to apease the Father's wrath...Hence His sacrifice does not appease God's wrath; it reveals God's love.... In the crucified Christ the truth about God, about us and about the world is most perfectly revealed. For the cross is where reconciliation between God and the world is accomplished...

Under the impact of the primordial deception, the "natural mind" does not expect the omnipotent Creator to like like this...

The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of every false picture of God is that it qualifies and compromises the truth about God's love. The most fundamental distinguishing characteristic of the true God is that the love He is and the love He gives is unsurpassable. A greater love simply cannot be conceived.

The love that God eternally is, is manifested in the love that God gives. And the love God gives is displayed most perfectly on the cross. (emphasis original, except underlined sentence).

Rosangela, regarding the analogy, let's try this. The air is filled with poisonous gas, and the person has a device that allows him to breathe without being killed. The person chooses to take off the device and is killed.

GC 541-543 talks about this principle. Those who have rejected God prefer to die rather than to live with a God who is like God is. We have this lifetime to learn to love God as He is, which is how He is revealed in Christ. If we don't, when the judgment comes, we will voluntarily choose death rather than to live with God. Our exclusion from heaven will be voluntary with ourselves. God will not force our will, even then.

In the DA passage we read:



If one separates oneself from God, one cuts himself off from life, and dies. This is the action of the one cutting himself off from God.

When it later says that glory of Him who is love will destroy them, the mechanism is that they cannot stand God's character of love, and they choose to separate themselves from God, and thus cut themselves off from life.

Please also consider that sin based on a principle -- selfishness -- which cannot support life. It's not necessary for God to do something artificial or arbitrary or imposed or manufactured (whichever adjective one chooses to use) to cause death to one who has chosen sin because such a one was already a "Dead Man Walking."

hi, my brother, i started this thread and if youll look at the op youll see it started with the plagues of egypt.

i intended for both sets of plagues and expanding onto other incidents would have been ok, but in a more disciplined, study and prayer manner.

its others that are coming at this "study" from their own previous understandings. makes me understand what ellen white was talking about regarding all she says concerning 1888.

thats your conclusion of what im saying so have at it.