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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115577
07/06/09 05:09 PM
07/06/09 05:09 PM
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Brazil
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Let's backtrack a moment, and consider what God's motivation would be. Why would God act so uncharacteristically? Why would He act contrary to principles which He has, through a spokesperson (Ellen White) as said are not found in His government, but only in Satan's? For example:
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759) Tom, Saying that God's act of destroying Satan would have been an act of force does not make sense, since this is precisely what will happen on the last day. Satan will be destroyed in the same manner he would have been destroyed at the beginning - by God's glory. So why would this have been an act of force at that time but it won't be on the last day? Because at that time nobody knew if Satan was right or wrong, and now everybody knows he is wrong. So the act of force refers to the context that surrounds Satan. It has nothing to do with the manner of his death.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#115578
07/06/09 05:21 PM
07/06/09 05:21 PM
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without looking for them at the moment, we have the statement from her where she says the righteous will be terrified at the second coming til Jesus says His grace is sufficient for them. it has to do with surviving Gods glory.
the pioneers believed the lost would be raised with bodies that could survive the glory of God.
there is an angel covering the glory of God when they have surrounded the city. satan sees him. Yes, and maybe the fire which comes down from heaven is just God's glory revealed if that angel, for instance, steps aside. However, don't we find passages saying that an angel covered God's glory even before sin? As to the body, the idea could be valid, but the fallen angels have a spiritual body, and they also are destroyed.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Rosangela]
#115582
07/06/09 06:30 PM
07/06/09 06:30 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Saying that God's act of destroying Satan would have been an act of force does not make sense, since this is precisely what will happen on the last day. No it's not! God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759) This tells us that 1.God could have destroyed Satan easily by force, but didn't do so. 2.Because force is not a principle of His government. 3.His principles are not of this order. 4.Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Clearly if God destroys Satan by force, these things are not true. Satan will be destroyed in the same manner he would have been destroyed at the beginning - by God's glory. So why would this have been an act of force at that time but it won't be on the last day? Because at that time nobody knew if Satan was right or wrong, and now everybody knows he is wrong. So the act of force refers to the context that surrounds Satan. It has nothing to do with the manner of his death. God's glory is His character. Force is not a principle of His government. Why not? Because it's not present in His character. Not at the beginning, and not at the end. Not ever. If the Lord's principles are not of this order, that means He doesn't do theses things -- ever. Jesus Christ revealed God's character, and in Him we see the truth that force is not a principle of God's. Consider: Deceit is not a principle of God's government. His principles are not of this order. Rebellion would not be overcome by force.Would it make sense to suggest that God could use deceit to overcome Satan? Plug in any word for "force" into what she said and see if it makes any sense. Because at that time nobody knew if Satan was right or wrong, and now everybody knows he is wrong. So the act of force refers to the context that surrounds Satan. It has nothing to do with the manner of his death. It has everything to do with the manner of his death. If Satan has to be killed, then sin is innocuous. It's not something which destroys the one who practices it, but something that God does not like, that sets one up to be destroyed by God. That's a completely different concept than the idea that death is the inevitable result of sin, and that had God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished. I've pointed out several times that the underlying principle of sin is selfishness, and that selfishness has no power to promote life.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Rosangela]
#115584
07/06/09 06:47 PM
07/06/09 06:47 PM
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Besides, sinners interact with God before His glory ceases to be restrained. They even watch Christ's coronation and knee before Him. And it's God who ceases to restrain His glory knowing that His glory will kill them - something which could be avoided. without looking for them at the moment, we have the statement from her where she says the righteous will be terrified at the second coming til Jesus says His grace is sufficient for them. it has to do with surviving Gods glory.
the pioneers believed the lost would be raised with bodies that could survive the glory of God.
there is an angel covering the glory of God when they have surrounded the city. satan sees him. Yes, and maybe the fire which comes down from heaven is just God's glory revealed if that angel, for instance, steps aside. However, don't we find passages saying that an angel covered God's glory even before sin? As to the body, the idea could be valid, but the fallen angels have a spiritual body, and they also are destroyed. i was addressing the "glory" part of your statement, not the the "right" or "wrongness" of it, which i honestly dont know. i guess the question is, which glory, or is there a difference? it seems there are two, offhand. the physical and the spiritual/character. well back to research what is said and given.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: liane]
#115585
07/06/09 06:50 PM
07/06/09 06:50 PM
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Hi Teresa:
After much prayer last night I have decided that I am going to pass on this topic. With the pending major surgery and the peace I need to prepare for its event I need to take a step back from the work that it would take to continue posting on this topic.
If I able when I come home which could be anywhere from two weeks to a month and this topic is still in the works I will make some effort to share my understandings.
As for anyone dying due to the plagues it does not appear that is the case. The only mention is every living souls died in the sea. Whether this living soul is mankind or the animals in the sea I am not sure.
I do know that when Jesus comes for His sealed Saints the wicked living at that time of translation will die. How many die because of the cause and affect of what is going on around the planet or by those that see him and are destroyed by His brightness I am not sure. What I do know is they will sleep through the thousand years and will be awakened to receive the second death.
That is about as simple as I understand it presently.
I will watch in interest the posting up through the day I leave on the 8th. i know that you are very well-studied, probably moreso than i. i just know that for as long as i have been studying i always come across bible texts and sop statements that add to my understanding or completely change it.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#115587
07/06/09 07:17 PM
07/06/09 07:17 PM
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I've reread the thread and the only thing that seems clear to me is that neither one of you (Tom and Teresaq) believe God or holy angels will cause the plagues to happen. What is painfully unclear is exactly what you two do think will cause them to happen. i dont know what will happen, which is why i am studying. i am coming across statements that contradict previous views. When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people....{GC 627.3} is this the only statement of hers on the subject that you are willing to consider? It is difficult for me to believe the evil angels are causing the plagues described above. If this were the case it would mean holy angels are praising God for what evil angels are doing. Also, she wrote that "power is given to the sun". This goes against the idea that God merely withdraws His protection and allows the sun to do what it does naturally. so the only conclusion you can come to is that if God Himself doesnt do it then evil angels do? Chap. 17. - The Seven Last Plagues and the Wicked
(The Great Time of Trouble, Part 1)
The Vials of God's Wrath Will Be Poured Out
Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.--3SM 426 (1890). {LDE 238.1} again, are these kinds of statements the only ones you wish to consider? wouldnt a better approach be to take everything the bible and sop says on the subject? one final thought: what kind of God were the jews looking for? why did they reject Jesus? wasnt it because they were looking for a "strong" god that would "punish" their enemies and make them, the jewish people, live in riches and comfort? are we different?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#115588
07/06/09 07:23 PM
07/06/09 07:23 PM
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I've reread the thread and the only thing that seems clear to me is that neither one of you (Tom and Teresaq) believe God or holy angels will cause the plagues to happen. What is painfully unclear is exactly what you two do think will cause them to happen. The description in the SOP (GC) describes them in such a way as to leave no doubt they are caused by holy angels. Listen: I had come across this in CD pg. 75 (MS 23) regarding the health message The Lord has given instruction that the gospel is to be carried forward; and the gospel includes health reform in all its phases. Our work is to enlighten the world; for it is blind to the movements which are taking place, preparing the way for the plagues which God will permit to come upon the world. What do you think she means by permit?
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Re: plagues
[Re: Tom]
#115589
07/06/09 07:43 PM
07/06/09 07:43 PM
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I mentioned this a bit earlier, but I think it's worth mentioning again, that in reference to the Revelation plagues, Mark started an interesting thread a little while ago. i dont remember which page the link was on.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115592
07/06/09 07:56 PM
07/06/09 07:56 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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It's rather interesting the differences in paradigms here. One leads to looking to take statements which speak of causation in terms of permission, while the other does the reverse.
One paradigm prefers to see God as not responsible for the death that occurs as a result of sin, while another prefers the reverse.
An interesting question to pursue is what does it say about God if we consider these things in terms of causation viz a viz permission.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#115600
07/06/09 08:50 PM
07/06/09 08:50 PM
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I've reread the thread and the only thing that seems clear to me is that neither one of you (Tom and Teresaq) believe God or holy angels will cause the plagues to happen. What is painfully unclear is exactly what you two do think will cause them to happen. The description in the SOP (GC) describes them in such a way as to leave no doubt they are caused by holy angels. Listen: I had come across this in CD pg. 75 (MS 23) regarding the health message The Lord has given instruction that the gospel is to be carried forward; and the gospel includes health reform in all its phases. Our work is to enlighten the world; for it is blind to the movements which are taking place, preparing the way for the plagues which God will permit to come upon the world. What do you think she means by permit? along the same lines, if we didnt have ellen whites clear statement that contradicted God saying He brought the "fiery serpents" upon the people we would be fighting tooth-and-nail to defend the "fact" that God did bring them on the people.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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