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Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115611
07/07/09 02:31 AM
07/07/09 02:31 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
is this an example of God withdrawing His protection? it just "fell into my lap", folks. i didnt go looking for it. didnt have a clue it was out there. smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tide


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115623
07/07/09 12:11 PM
07/07/09 12:11 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary.(GW 315)


How does the sacrifice of Christ enlighten our understanding of the plagues?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115628
07/07/09 02:59 PM
07/07/09 02:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Let's backtrack a moment, and consider what God's motivation would be. Why would God act so uncharacteristically? Why would He act contrary to principles which He has, through a spokesperson (Ellen White) as said are not found in His government, but only in Satan's? For example:

Quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)

For years Satan has been trying to misrepresent God's character, to make Him appear harsh, cruel, and tyrant-like. Why would God go along with Satan's plans? More to the point, why would God act in a way He is not? (and we know what God is like because Jesus fully revealed Him.)

Or, to ask the question another way, where did Jesus, during His time with us in the flesh (the time period covered by the 8T 216 quote) ever act in the way you are seeing that God will act in Revelation?

It still seems to me that you are going at this completely backwards. I think one needs to first ask the question, "What is God like?", and, having that firmly established in your minds, we can look at more difficult Scriptures. Instead of this what I see, over and over again, is the reliance upon difficult to understand texts used to bolster opinions already held (I'm not speaking only of the plagues here, or destruction of the wicked, but other subjects we've discussed as well).

The quotes posted above include ones that speak of holy angels causing death and destruction. Yes, she also wrote about evil angels causing death and destruction too. Which is why I believe both will be involved during the out pouring of the seven last plagues.

Right. I've been asking you to cite examples of Jesus withdrawing His protection, while He was here, and permitting evil men or evil angels to punish and kill unrepentant sinners. So far you've only cited the cross which I do not view as an example unless of course you are looking at Jesus as an example of an unrepentant sinner.

Re: plagues [Re: Mountain Man] #115630
07/07/09 03:16 PM
07/07/09 03:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The quotes posted above include ones that speak of holy angels causing death and destruction. Yes, she also wrote about evil angels causing death and destruction too. Which is why I believe both will be involved during the out pouring of the seven last plagues.


But this doesn't really makes sense, does it? On the face of it, something must be wrong with an interpretation that has holy angels and evil angels doing the same thing.

Quote:
Right. I've been asking you to cite examples of Jesus withdrawing His protection, while He was here, and permitting evil men or evil angels to punish and kill unrepentant sinners. So far you've only cited the cross which I do not view as an example unless of course you are looking at Jesus as an example of an unrepentant sinner.


You've asked this question several dozen times, and I've answered several dozen times, sometimes with lists with many examples, sometimes with just one item. Have you forgotten? It's very odd that you would say, "So far you've only cited the cross."

But since the cross has come up, let's discuss it. How do you see that the cross enables us to understand the plagues?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115631
07/07/09 03:18 PM
07/07/09 03:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Also, I should add, that Teresa's point is well taken in that Jesus had laid aside prerogatives of His divinity, so that it was not His role to withdraw His protection, permitting evil men to punish and kill unrepentant sinners, etc. His role was to reveal the Father. So a more accurate question would be, where was God's character in respect to His withdrawing His protection revealed, and I can think of no better example of the cross, and resulting problems viz a viz Jerusalem and the nation as a whole.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115637
07/07/09 03:44 PM
07/07/09 03:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,501
Midland
Excellent points. Would it even be possible for Jesus to withdraw protection He did not have? Is it possible for us to reveal God's character?
Hmmmm....

Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #115640
07/07/09 04:09 PM
07/07/09 04:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

You haven't yet explained how God's act of removing His protection would be any better than directly removing life, specially in view of the fact that through these "permissions" He accomplishes His purposes.

Re: plagues [Re: kland] #115641
07/07/09 04:11 PM
07/07/09 04:11 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
the egyptian plagues were literal.

but could the revelation plagues be symbolic? i mean the 6th plague, we all know, is pure symbolism. so are the other ones also?

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

could this be symbolic of the widespread drought and famine?

God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected but man suffers from pestilence. . . . These things are the result of drops from the vials of God's wrath [GOD TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT WHICH HE ALLOWS OR DOES NOT PREVENT. SEE EXODUS 7:3; 8:32; 1 CHRONICLES 10:4, 13, 14.] being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future.--3SM 391 (1891). {LDE 27.1}
Famines will increase. Pestilences will sweep away thousands. Dangers are all around us from the powers without and satanic workings within, but the restraining power of God is now being exercised.--19MR 382 (1897). {LDE 27.2}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115643
07/07/09 04:18 PM
07/07/09 04:18 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
I have been shown that the Spirit of the Lord is being withdrawn from the earth. God's keeping power will soon be refused to all who continue to disregard His commandments. The reports of fraudulent transactions, murders, and crimes of every kind are coming to us daily. Iniquity is becoming so common a thing that it no longer shocks the senses as it once did.--Letter 258, 1907. {LDE 27.3}

God's Purpose in Calamities

What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches that men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor? The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {LDE 27.4}
The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}
God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}
How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #115645
07/07/09 05:05 PM
07/07/09 05:05 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
You haven't yet explained how God's act of removing His protection would be any better than directly removing life, specially in view of the fact that through these "permissions" He accomplishes His purposes.


Let's discuss His purposes first.

Quote:
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.

It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. (DA 759)


The purpose is to win the Great Controversy. God does this through revelation. He reveals His goodness, and He reveals Satan's evilness (or sin's destructiveness). When people cause God to withdraw His protection, and Satan responds by revealing his character (or the destructive power of sin is revealed), God's purpose is served.

Regarding how it's better, it's better because rather God acting like Satan, God permits Satan (or sin) to act like Satan (or permits the effects of sin to be seen), and reveals what it's like to act like Satan (or what the effects of sin are). That helps God in winning the Great Controversy.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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