tq and kland,

Let's say I was holding an egg in my outstretched hand over the edge of the roof of the Empire State Building, and I let go of it so that it is crushed when it hits the ground. How is that ethically different from simply crushing it in my hand?

Swap the egg with a baby and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

Swap the baby with a normal adult and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

That's the crux of the argument between God sending the serpents vs allowing them, sending the plagues vs allowing them, etc.

What seems to have been overlooked is the fact that these "bad" things may be bad indeed, but the alternative may be worse. When my children disobey me, I spank them so that they can have an immediate and tangible connection between disobedience and suffering. Did I want them to suffer? No. But did I cause pain in their behind? You better believe it! Why? Because the alternative is that they plant and cultivate the idea that they can disobey without any harmful effects upon themselves. That is worse.

I think it means permit the four angels to release the four winds and permit the seven angels to pour out the seven plagues. They are ready and awaiting His command. What do you think it means?

I didn't mean to imply they will be doing the same things. There is more happening than the holy angels merely pouring out the plagues. Evil angels are influencing evil men to do all manner of evil.


None of the examples of gave fit the bill, Tom. You have yet to cite an example of Jesus doing what I've asked.


I agree. I've made this point several times.


But I am asking for an example of Jesus doing it while here in the flesh. You seem to be agreeing with me that He didn't.

Red tide is a naturally recurring thing. Yes, God can prevent it, but He regularly does not. I'm not sure it as an example of the "withdraw and permit principle" of permitting death and destruction.

Some red tides are associated with the production of natural toxins, depletion of dissolved oxygen or other harmful effects, and are generally described as harmful algal blooms. The most conspicuous effects of red tides are the associated wildlife mortalities among marine and coastal species of fish, birds, marine mammals and other organisms. In the case of Florida red tides, these mortalities are caused by exposure to a potent neurotoxin called brevetoxin which is produced naturally by the marine algae Karenia brevis.

The term "Red Tide" is also commonly used to describe harmful algal blooms on the northern east coast of the United States, particularly in the Gulf of Maine. This type of bloom is caused by another species of dinoflagellate known as Alexandrium fundyense. These blooms of organisms cause severe disruptions in fisheries of these waters as the toxins in these organism cause filter-feeding shellfish in affected waters to become poisonous for human consumption due to saxitoxin.

Their occurrence in some locations appear to be entirely natural,
while in others they appear to be a result of human activities
The frequency and severity of algal blooms in some parts of the world have been linked to increased nutrient loading from human activities.

In other areas, algal blooms are a seasonal occurrence resulting from coastal upwelling, a natural result of the movement of certain ocean currents.

The growth of marine phytoplankton is generally limited by the availability of nitrates and phosphates, which can be abundant in agricultural run-off as well as coastal upwelling zones. Coastal water pollution produced by humans and systematic increase in sea water temperature have also been implicated as contributing factors in red tides.

Other factors such as iron-rich dust influx from large desert areas such as the Saharan desert are thought to play a major role in causing red tides.

Some algal blooms on the Pacific coast have also been linked to occurrences of large-scale climatic oscillations such as El Niño events.

No deaths of humans have been attributed to Florida red tide, but people may experience respiratory irritation (coughing, sneezing, and tearing) when the red tide organism (Karenia brevis) is present along a coast and winds blow its toxic aerosol onshore. Swimming is usually safe, but skin irritation and burning is possible in areas of high concentration of red tide.

(http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife/topics/redtide/)
Red tide is a global phenomenon. However, since the 1980s harmful red tide events have become more frequent and widespread. Detection of a spread is thought to be influenced by higher awareness of red tide, better equipment for detecting and analyzing red tide, and nutrient loading from farming and industrial runoff. Countries affected by red tide events include: Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Denmark, England, France, Guatemala, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, New Guinea, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Thailand, the United States, and Venezuela.

The disasters of the past year in America have caused hearts to tremble, and similar disasters have fallen upon other countries. Already sprinklings from the vials of God's wrath have been let fall upon land and sea, affecting the elements of the air. The causes of these unusual conditions are being searched for, but in vain. {3MR 312.2}

Famines will increase. Pestilences will sweep away thousands. Dangers are all around us from the powers without and satanic workings within, but the restraining power of God is now being exercised.--19MR 382 (1897). {LDE 27.2}
I have been shown that the Spirit of the Lord is being withdrawn from the earth. God's keeping power will soon be refused to all who continue to disregard His commandments. The reports of fraudulent transactions, murders, and crimes of every kind are coming to us daily. Iniquity is becoming so common a thing that it no longer shocks the senses as it once did.--Letter 258, 1907. {LDE 27.3}

That doesn't seem like a very significant issue to me. More important is this: When God removes His protection and bad things happen, did He want those bad things to happen?

If He did not want those bad things, then why permit them?

It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. (DA 759)

If He wanted those bad things, then that's the crucial point.

(MM)I think it means permit the four angels to release the four winds and permit the seven angels to pour out the seven plagues. They are ready and awaiting His command. What do you think it means?

Coming to Christ, they reported to Him the words of the people, telling Him that they had even refused to give Him a night's lodging. They thought that a grievous wrong had been done Him, and seeing Mount Carmel in the distance, where Elijah had slain the false prophets, they said, "Wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?" They were surprised to see that Jesus was pained by their words, and still more surprised as His rebuke fell upon their ears, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And He went to another village.(DA 487)

Let's say I was holding an egg in my outstretched hand over the edge of the roof of the Empire State Building, and I let go of it so that it is crushed when it hits the ground. How is that ethically different from simply crushing it in my hand?

Swap the egg with a baby and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

Swap the baby with a normal adult and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

That's the crux of the argument between God sending the serpents vs allowing them, sending the plagues vs allowing them, etc.

What seems to have been overlooked is the fact that these "bad" things may be bad indeed, but the alternative may be worse.

When my children disobey me, I spank them so that they can have an immediate and tangible connection between disobedience and suffering. Did I want them to suffer? No. But did I cause pain in their behind? You better believe it! Why? Because the alternative is that they plant and cultivate the idea that they can disobey without any harmful effects upon themselves. That is worse.

Let's say I was holding an egg in my outstretched hand over the edge of the roof of the Empire State Building,

If He did not want those bad things, then why permit them?

God never "withdraws", not even when He allows whatever to happen.

I have been shown that the Spirit of the Lord is being withdrawn from the earth. God's keeping power will soon be refused to all who continue to disregard His commandments. The reports of fraudulent transactions, murders, and crimes of every kind are coming to us daily. Iniquity is becoming so common a thing that it no longer shocks the senses as it once did.--Letter 258, 1907. {LDE 27.3}

God's Purpose in Calamities

What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches that men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor? The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {LDE 27.4}
The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--3MR 311 (1902). {LDE 28.1}
God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word.--19MR 279 (1902). {LDE 28.2}
How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man, but in them all God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--PK 277 (c. 1914). {LDE 28.3}