if i can "elbow" in. it seems to me that we would clearly see satan is a destroyer. since God is constantly protecting us right now and limiting what the enemy can do to us and in our world, and to the lost, we cant clearly see what is happening as the work of satan.

many believe the bad things happening are a result of God being angry, that He is causing destruction because someone didnt do what He said. some go so far as believing that He puts it into peoples heads to steal, kill and destroy others, whether they believe it consciously or unconsciously.

jumping off-topic for a minute, at the third coming everyone who has ever lived will see clearly, without a doubt, that it has always been satan who has caused any harm, they will also clearly see "what sin is" as God opens their eyes after satan has deceived and instigated the lost to try and overtake the city by claiming that he, satan, is the rightful prince.

there will be no way to avoid conviction then.

removing my protection from someone who takes advantage of it is not the same as doing the results to them myself, i dont believe. course that also depends in what "spirit" i remove my protection. if im protecting someone and they use that protection over and over to hurt others then if i stop holding back the consequences of their own actions, how would it be the same as me inflicting those consequences?

That doesn't seem like a very significant issue to me. More important is this: When God removes His protection and bad things happen, did He want those bad things to happen?

If He did not want those bad things, then why permit them?

If He wanted those bad things, then that's the crucial point.

if your child grows up-of legal age-and insists on smoking you can chain him somewhere and prevent him from smoking or you can "permit" him to smoke. you can also try to protect him in various ways from the potential effects of smoking. but if he rejects all your efforts and,

if he gets cancer and dies, was that your will?

or do i misunderstand your point?

Have you considered the question, if God didn't want bad things to happen, why did He permit Satan to go bad? Why did He create a being which could go bad?

tq and kland,

Let's say I was holding an egg in my outstretched hand over the edge of the roof of the Empire State Building, and I let go of it so that it is crushed when it hits the ground. How is that ethically different from simply crushing it in my hand?

Swap the egg with a baby and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

Swap the baby with a normal adult and run the same scenario, ask the same question.

That's the crux of the argument between God sending the serpents vs allowing them, sending the plagues vs allowing them, etc.

What seems to have been overlooked is the fact that these "bad" things may be bad indeed, but the alternative may be worse. When my children disobey me, I spank them so that they can have an immediate and tangible connection between disobedience and suffering. Did I want them to suffer? No. But did I cause pain in their behind? You better believe it! Why? Because the alternative is that they plant and cultivate the idea that they can disobey without any harmful effects upon themselves. That is worse.

I thought so. So far I have been trying to figure out what you and Tom believe about it. At this point I'm not sure what you previously thought about it, what you no longer think is true, or what you do think about it now. I'm hoping you will eventually clear things up.


Actually, I posted an entire chapter from LDE. What it is about this particular passage that made you single it out? I like it for the reason she compares the plagues to the ones poured out in Egypt.


I referred to two different possibilities - 1) God permitting evil angels, and 2) God permitting nature. Of course two other options are - 3) God commanding holy angels, and 4) God doing it Himself. I tend to think all four will be involved.


Again, I quoted the entire chapter. I am more than willing to consider other Bible/SOP passages on the topic. Please post them. BTW, why did you single out this one?


Yes, the Jews confused the three different comings of Jesus - 1) Sacrificial Lamb, 2) Conquering King, and 3) Just Judge. I'm not sure how many people are confusing His comings nowadays, but I believe I have them figured out. What are your thoughts?

I think it means permit the four angels to release the four winds and permit the seven angels to pour out the seven plagues. They are ready and awaiting His command. What do you think it means?

I didn't mean to imply they will be doing the same things. There is more happening than the holy angels merely pouring out the plagues. Evil angels are influencing evil men to do all manner of evil.


None of the examples of gave fit the bill, Tom. You have yet to cite an example of Jesus doing what I've asked.


I agree. I've made this point several times.


But I am asking for an example of Jesus doing it while here in the flesh. You seem to be agreeing with me that He didn't.

Red tide is a naturally recurring thing. Yes, God can prevent it, but He regularly does not. I'm not sure it as an example of the "withdraw and permit principle" of permitting death and destruction.

you seem to be needing some kind of definite statement when i dont know that one can be given if one is still studying and rethinking what one has been handed. tom will have to speak for himself, which i thought he had done so many times.
an entire chapter in lde are very, very short. but there are so many more statements on the plagues, aka judgments, aka vials, some of which have been posted. i get the feeling they are disregarded by some. if my perception is correct how can there possibly be any discussion? ok i have posted other statements by the lady. they appear to have been disregarded. you feel i "singled this one out"? why do you feel that way? is it possible i just took one statement so as to abbreviate the post? ellen white has stated that we will be in the exact same condition at the second coming as the jews were at the first. history does repeat itself.