M: Yes, God permits death and destruction to arouse people to a sense of their need and danger. Do evil angels cooperate with God in His endeaver? Or, are they ignorant of what they are doing?

t: the quotes had to do with the plagues, which i didnt include. as for your questions, i see God as telling us what the evil angels will do.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

this, as well as the corresponding texts that go with it make it very clear whether it is God acting or "evil angels". for those of that mindset, would these angels and satan be working in conjunction with God, here?

M: Verses 13-16 above are not directly related to what the sixth angel will do when he pours out the sixth vial.

And, yes, evil angels unwittingly fulfill the will and purpose of God in such cases. I suppose they are ignorant or hoping things will not play out according to God's plan. If they believed it would serve God's overall plan seems to me they wouldn't go along with it. The following passage goes along with the dynamics in Rev 16:13-16.

2 Thessalonians
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

M: Also, it should be noted that for every quote like this one there are corresponding quotes that say God causes death and destruction either Himself or through holy angels. In other words, He does not always withdraw His protection and allow evil angels to wreak havoc.

t: oh, ok, i see where you are coming from.

but yes, there are, just like this one, and if we did not have ellen white to point out the contradiction, or explanation, we would believe that God literally sent serpents into the camp.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

M: I don't see a significant difference between God sending serpents to bite them and not preventing the poison from killing them or allowing serpents in the area to bite them and not preventing the poison from killing them. Do you? If so, please explain why.

BTW, do you agree with the idea that there are times when God does not allow death and destruction through the "withdraw and permit principle"? Keep the following in mind:

Especially solemn is the apostle's statement regarding those who should refuse to receive "the love of the truth." "For this cause," he declared of all who should deliberately reject the messages of truth, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Men cannot with impunity reject the warnings that God in mercy sends them. From those who persist in turning from these warnings, God withdraws His Spirit, leaving them to the deceptions that they love. {AA 266.2}

The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation, and the Lord withdraws His protection, and leaves them to the mercy of the leader they have chosen. Satan will have power over those who have yielded themselves to his control, and he will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {Mar 275.2}

God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}

t: we seem to be at an impasse so keeping in mind the counsel we are given concerning discussions and debates, i withdraw.

Do you believe there is an enemy seeking to hurt us? Do you think that it's possible to remain unscathed if God removes His protection?

What about God? Does He believe there is an enemy seeking to destroy? Does He think it is possible for us to remain unharmed without His protection?

im resistant to this type of discussion. there have been a few people who have used this method to "prove" to me that keeping the 7th day sabbath is legalism.

the discussion started by asking questions that i would be in agreement with then hitting me with the punchline which left me at a complete loss because i had been under the illusion/delusion that it was an honest discussion. so when they started taking me down twisty, turny, manipulation lane to error i just asked God to answer them through me. they stopped doing that for a while, but then they would forget that God had put them to shame and come back for more. or perhaps they thought they had better "questions", i dont know.

shall we proceed?

i would be very interested to see how He will answer.