every time i started to state my position something held me back.

i didnt know why at first but i do now.

based on my bible studies i have believed that God did indeed, Personally, rain down fire on sodom and gomorrah, and other incidents as reported in the bible.

and i still do
based on my understanding
which does not seem to match
other proponents of God kills.

when i came across this alternate view,

based on the counsel of ellen white to investigate all positions,

i was, and am, willing to go back and search the scriptures and sop and see if there is indeed evidence that would back that up.

i dont know if i will ever change from my original position or not.

but let me thank those who have contributed to an unenjoyable time searching this topic out.

where does it say, in the bible alone, that God will mourn for the lost throughout eternity.

bible only.

thanks. you said it better than i.

you havent shown me anything i wasnt fully aware of, my brother.

whereas other statements and texts are coming to my attention that i had overlooked, or disregarded, because they did not fit the picture i had.

that has happened regularly in my last 30 years or so studying. that is why i am rarely "attached" to anything other than the most basics. state of the dead, sabbath, and such. the basics.

and even then i find that continued study deepens and widens my understanding of those subjects.

teresa, regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, it's pretty easy to see, it seems to me, how what happened there could be the results of natural activities, given the environment there. The hardest part to understand of this, as a natural activity, it seems to me, is Lot's being turned to salt. Here's a comment regarding that:



Regarding the rest of it, fire and brimstone falling from the sky, how else would someone from that time have described the results of eruptions? It seems like a perfectly natural description to me.

Good question. I don't know. Perhaps Tom does. The following passages touch on how God thinks and feels about it:

Matthew
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke
17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!
17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Revelation
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation
22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Thank you for explaining your thoughts on this topic. Like you I still lean towards believing God Himself has indeed caused death and destruction. But studying this with Tom has opened my eyes to the fact there are four other ways death and destruction happens (listed previously). Unlike Tom, however, I am unable to view them as merely other ways of saying God permits the forces of nature or evil angels or evil men to cause death and destruction. Again, thank you for sharing.

so, based on those passages, which i didnt leave in so as to make the post shorter, you believe that God will not mourn the lost for eternity?

oh, my brother, im not against a different view from my understanding. nor do i feel any need to plant my feet and let them dig a deeper and deeper ditch to hold onto my understanding, possibly to my destruction, by rejecting your view.

Ok, thanks. During the inquisition, there were those who tortured their victims, to get them to confess, in order that they might be eternally saved. According to 2), were they doing the right thing? (assuming they were correct, that their tortured would bring the fruit they wished; or was their only error being wrong that their torturing would accomplish what they wished?)