Again, I realize you are in study mode and haven't come to any solid conclusions yet. And, I guess I was wrong about what you believe about God causing death and destruction. So, I am in wait mode, hoping you will continue to share what you discover about the plagues and whether or not God will command holy angels to cause them, or permit evil angels to cause them, or permit evil men to cause them, or permit the forces of nature to cause them, or something altogether new and different. You seem to have a knack for finding inspired quotes that make such things clear. Of course I will continue to study and share too.

No, I don't believe those. If those are the conclusions drawn, I believe the correct answers were not given.

The Jews always asked Jesus many questions to try to trip Him up. But He was always ready to give the correct answer. It was the Jews who were often stumped.

God's truth, when rightly pieced together, forms a complete and consistent picture (sorry to Picasso fans). If we knew what all the pieces were, and how they fit together, we should be able to avoid theological traps as Jesus did.


I'm sorry to make you sad, but the sadness is unnecessary.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I want to understand what you're saying. Answering the questions will either confirm my initial understanding, or bring out points I have misunderstood about what you are saying. I don't need to prove you wrong if it turns out that I was wrong in thinking that you were wrong.

And to be proven wrong is not all that terrible. I've been there many times. And I thank the ones who prove me wrong because they were instruments in helping me learn the truth. If my zipper is open, I will appreciate it if you point it out as quickly and as clearly as you can.

So if we really are in disagreement (which is not yet settled), I will be honored if you prove that I am wrong. If it turns out you are wrong, I will be honored in helping you see the light.

Again, let's see where we end up, shall we?


We all start with assumptions. The worthy discussants are those who are able to shift from their initial assumptions whenever necessary.

OK, here's a quick summary:
1) God sometimes allows painful things to happen, if that will be eternally beneficial.
2) God sometimes causes painful things to happen, if that will be eternally beneficial.

I thought the list would be longer, but it turns out that pretty much sums up my view. If something is unclear, feel free to ask questions.

All of the above is true, right? So far I have found five different ways death and destruction happen:

1. God causes it Himself.
2. God commands holy angels to do it.
3. God permits evil angels to do it.
4. God permits evil men to do it.
5. God permits the forces of nature to do it.


I hope you don't mind that I enumerated the rest of your post to make it easier to address.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Or, which of the five ways I mentioned above will play out?
4. I think it has to do with who will be involved in causing the things portrayed by plagues?
5. No, of course not. So, we should be able to eliminate this idea from the discussion. Is the following a part of the Gospel?

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Matthew
23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Romans
2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hebrews
2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

from page 36 post 115781

If I believe that nothing bad will happen to me, whether or not God protects me, does that mean that nothing bad will happen to me? IOW, does my belief determine reality?

Do you believe there is an enemy seeking to hurt us? Do you think that it's possible to remain unscathed if God removes His protection?[/quote]

i was referring specifically to the serpents and heeding the lesson of gratitude that we should be in all the time, which has been a point ive tried to make repeatedly but which im not seeing acknowledged. be that as it may....

while i was referring to a specific example you seem to be making some kind of general point, so could you come up with a biblical example(s) that you are basing your questions on, please?

that has been the main reason i have not answered many questions because they have appeared quite unrelated to what i had specifically said.

this one i will never answer because i do not wish to presume to speak for God.

Why isn't it a question? Did the evil angels have a choice or not? Or, were they required to influence the soldiers to kill the Jews because God withdrew His protection from them and gave them over to evil angels?


What is the relationship between "nature" and evil men and angels revealing their true character?


I am basing this question on your idea that nature would naturally cause death and devastation were it not for God actively restraining it.


I thought you alluded to it earlier on this thread, that is, that bad things do not always play out when God withdraws His protection.


Just trying to discern your thoughts. I was getting the impression you believe evil angels will always cause the death and destruction God is willing to allow them to cause.


I do not have to wonder if my view of God is harsh. The Bible and the SOP spell it out clearly. There are so many examples of God commanding holy angels and righteous people to punish and kill sinners. The Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer come to mind. Listen:

Leviticus
24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

In both cases it was not clear to the COI what should be done and they asked Moses to inquire of God. Listen:

Enraged at this decision, he cursed the judge, and in the heat of passion blasphemed the name of God. He was immediately brought before Moses. The command had been given, "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 21:17); but no provision had been made to meet this case. So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained. God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death. Those who had been witness to the sin placed their hands upon his head, thus solemnly testifying to the truth of the charge against him. Then they threw the first stones, and the people who stood by afterward joined in executing the sentence. {PP 407.5}

He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. {PP 409.1}

As you can see it was God who commanded Moses and the COI to stone them to death. I do not think it was harsh of God to command them to stone them to death. Do you?

this part was possibly accidently overlooked. something helpful might be to review what ellen white said about debates and discussions.
i find this to be in keeping with what she said and works, ive found, much better than anything i come up with: Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
ive

And I see the different quotes as describing different realities rather than one being more mature than the other. Your view of such quotes, namely, that one is more right, more mature, than the other places you at a disadvantage in that you are ill prepared to see their truthfulness. You dismiss them as being geared toward immature believers and lacking in depth and balance and truthfulness. Such interpretations or extrapolations are unnecessary and unwarranted when such quotes are taken at face value and viewed as truthful rather than incomplete or geared for immature and ill informed believers.

Remember the old adage - "What you win them with is what you win them to."

Teresaq, I regularly quote the Bible and the SOP. Has it been helpful?

perhaps you can explain to me how misunderstood this?