MM, I'm presenting a detailed response to your post, but I can't help but notice that you haven't answered the questioned asked of you three times now I think. Here it is once more:



As I've been saying, I've very interested in your answer to this. I hope you'll answer.




Required how?



Nature, of course, has no character to be revealed. Evil men and evil angels reveal their character by doing evil things.



I don't see that this question makes sense. If you are managing something, would be you be surprised at the results if you stopped managing it? Wouldn't this apply much more to God? Why do you think God would be surprised by the results of His stopping to manage something?



I spoke of how Satan sometimes "blesses" those who follow him. So it's possible that God could remove His protection from someone and Satan could "bless" him for his own purposes. For example, the Nazis, for a time, were very well off.



Since I mentioned the SOP says the reverse, it seems odd to me that you would get such an impression.



My word no! There's nothing in the Bible or SOP like the things you've said! For example













Reading these things, can you see how someone could perceive your view of God as "harsh"?



I think your question assumes a false premise. Anyway, we've discussed this at length in the past. It seems to me, the following subjects are a way of proceeding, in terms of order of difficulty:

1.The destruction of the wicked.
2.The atonement.
3.Acts where God apparently acts contrary to the principles of His government by direct actions of violence and force.
4.Acts where God apparently acts contrary to the principles of His government by commanding others to do actions of violence and force.

I think 4 is the most difficult to understand. We've spoken regarding this at length. I presented the story of the father of the hunter son to try to help.

I believe that God acts like Jesus Christ. Not only some of the time, but all of the time. I don't believe Jesus Christ was presenting a partial view of God, or a view of God when He's in a good mood. In Jesus Christ we see how God reacts in a whole host of scenarios, including scenarios where enemies conspire and act against Him, doing terrible things to Him. I see nothing harsh about the picture of God that Jesus Christ portrayed, and nothing that could be compared to the quotes above (from "bloodthirsty" to "billions").

This just seems like a list of passages which have the theme of being negative sounding. They don't seem to be dealing with God's feelings at all. Here are a couple of mind that do deal with feelings:







This last one is David in grief over his son, of course, but I believe it presents how God will feel over the death of the wicked.

Also Revelation speak of tears beings wiped away. That implies there are tears. It's hard to imagine there would be all of this grief without God being involved.

I would that our eyes could be opened to see and to realize our danger of departing from the principles of God's law. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, the adorable Son of God, agonized with the Father, with strong crying and tears. This was not on his own account; but because we feel so little our need of fervent, earnest prayer; because we see so little our danger. He wept because we have no tears to shed. Our hearts are in danger of becoming hard and unimpressible. {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 3}

Christ overlooked the world and all ages from the height of Olivet; and His words are applicable to every soul who slights the pleadings of divine mercy. Scorner of His love, He addresses you today. It is "thou, even thou," who shouldest know the things that belong to thy peace. Christ is shedding bitter tears for you, who have no tears to shed for yourself. Already that fatal hardness of heart which destroyed the Pharisees is manifest in you. And every evidence of the grace of God, every ray of divine light, is either melting and subduing the soul, or confirming it in hopeless impenitence. {DA 588.1}

The tears which Christ shed upon Olivet as He stood overlooking the chosen city were not for Jerusalem alone. In the fate of Jerusalem He beheld the destruction of the world. {COL 302.3}

But thirty years was all that the world could endure of its Redeemer. For thirty years He dwelt in a world all seared and marred with sin, doing the work that no other one ever had done or ever could do. And for three years He waited, and prayed, and worked, and wept, crying, "Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backsliding." "Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." But the Jewish nation would not receive their Messiah. Throughout the years of His public ministry they sought to put Him to death; and this act was to prove their ruin. {ST, February 15, 1899 par. 7}

Christ had often sought the Father in anguish of spirit, as He beheld the situation of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Often in the lonely mountains He had prayed with strong crying and tears, because that of all the people on the face of the earth, none were so filled with bitterness and hatred against Him as were those who had been favored with every temporal and spiritual advantage. This was the people for whom the Son of God had done so much, in order that they might become a treasure-house of rich truth, to impart the same to the world. Those who claimed to know God were opening their hearts to the attributes of Satan. In the blighted fig tree Christ sees the ruin of the nation, and the sight draws tears to His eyes. {ST, February 15, 1899 par. 11}

It said the devil, not evil angels. But, could be intended to be applied to the evil angels. More importantly, shall we conclude from your conclusion here that general principles can be applied to different situations?


But, wasn't the above issue specifically addressed?

How about from your quote of GC 36:
Was Herod a man?
Was there any reason to believe Joseph and Mary had passed the limits of divine forebearance?
Would it follow that Herod, a man, did not pass fully under the control of Satan as Mary and Joseph did not pass the limits of divine forbearance and therefore God did not remove His restraint?



MM,

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

Prov 8:27-29: I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

Since I was looking up words, I thought I'd look up burst:
Now you might have to use some general principles here, but if something has internal pressure, that would mean something is constraining that pressure. If you look at physics, that would require "work".



Do you suggest, God made me do it - I had no choice in the matter, is a good excuse?



But is it accurate? Do you not see similarities between your reactions and James'? I said, "(fill in what you want as you have objected but never stated what your view of God is called)". How would you describe your view of God? Why are you hesitant to answer? You have only said that God maiming, torturing, and killing men, women, and children is "love", because God is love and therefore it has to be "love". Not only does it not make any sense from a reasoning point of view, but it doesn't seem like love to me. It seems rather "harsh". So, how would you describe your view of God in two or three words as contrasted to Tom's and others of us views?


What about where Ellen White has specifically contradicted your views.
(But, actually, what do you mean by this statement? Do you mean your view of God is not harsh because the Bible and SOP spell the harshness out clearly? That is, your view is not harsh because the Bible agrees with it? Kind of states that your view IS harsh and is supported by the Bible?)

Whether what you assume I assume, is there a reason you have not answered my question:
I didn't assume anything of what your answer would be. That's why I asked it. Otherwise, I would state what I thought it was.

In answering Tom, if I found out God wasn't a loving God, that He directly punished (for what purpose, Mountain Man has failed to provide an adequate answer) and destroyed people who ultimately want nothing to do with Him, I would cease being a Christian, actually probably be an anti-Christian, twist and contort things to say there was no God, for if there were a God, I would want nothing doing with such a sadistic, torturing, and revengeful tyrant as such. I know quite a few who have taken this view.

MM, since you have thought I assumed something, I have now thought through it and have assumed what seems apparent by your refusal to answer.

MM, if you found out that God is a loving God, who doesn't directly punish and destroy people but permits them to separate from Him which results in death, would you cease to be a Christian and become anti-Christian?

Consider this:
Colossians 3:6-8 (NIV) Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7) You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8) But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

Should we assume the "wrath of God" doesn't involve those things which we are to rid ourselves of? If you assume God is somehow "exempt" from what we should rid ourselves of, what about the angels?

On a more relevant note regarding the question about what if you find God to different than how you believe,
What is "malice"?

Tom, this question reminds me people who ask, What if you get to heaven and find out that Jesus really did change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, that Sunday wasn't the mark of the beast? How would that make you feel?

I cannot answer questions like these without affirming the truth as I see it. We both know with 100 percent certainty that we will not find out in heaven that Jesus did indeed change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

BTW, I agree with this part of your question - "permits them to separate from Him and the result is death". Separating from God does indeed result in death. No doubt about it. There is also no doubt that God punishes and destroys unrepentant sinners.

I suppose I can satisfy your question and say, If I get to heaven and find out that God only used the "withdraw and permit principle" to allow separated sinners to suffer and die I would be perfectly happy to have been wrong all this time.

Now, please answer the reverse of your question.

No. Like you, I cannot say with certainty what God will feel like when the wicked are eternally punished with destruction. The passages I posted are ones that speak to the question. Perhaps there are other ones which flesh it out - I don't know. Here are a few more:

Psalm
2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psalm
37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Psalm
52:6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
52:7 Lo, [this is] the man [that] made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, [and] strengthened himself in his wickedness.

Psalm
59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.
59:9 [Because of] his strength will I wait upon thee: for God [is] my defence.

Proverbs
1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

PS - I realize these passages appear on the surface to reflect a malicious attitude, but since we know God is a loving heavenly Father they cannot possibly reflect such an attitude. Perhaps it akin to the relief parents feel when the man who abducted, raped, and killed their 6 year old daughter is executed. I don't know. Like you said, it is unwise to assume God feels the same way some humans do about such things.

Tom, it would be very helpful if you would refrain from referring to opposing views in terms of "torture" or "force" or "violence". It makes it extremely difficult to study with you when you label things in such terms. It comes across as very insulting and demeaning. Please consider my request. thank you.

but thats what the papacy did, mm....shall we water it down?

Did God limit their options to how it played out? Or, were they at liberty to do as they please? For example, could they have blessed the Jews in their rejection of Jesus and the Gospel?


You’ve deleted the post I responded to so I don’t know what we’re talking about. Please repost this with your comment. Thank you.


Again, you’ve omitted the post I was responding to. At any rate, are you saying that nature will naturally cause the kind of death and destruction we read about in the Bible were it not for God holding things in check? Or, do you think other outcomes are possible? And, do you think God totally withdraws or does He meter it so as to avoid absolute chaos and devastation?


Does this mean you think evil angels are at liberty to bless sinners when God gives them over to Satan? If so, please cite a Bible or SOP statement affirming this view. Thank you.


Please cite Bible or SOP passages to affirm this view.


Tom, you quoted me out of context. Why don’t you afford me the same courtesy you do the Bible and the SOP, namely, take such statements and interpret them to agree with your view? Quoting me out of context to make it seem like I believe something I do not is unfair and unkind.


What is so difficult about understanding God commanding Moses and the COI to stone sinners to death? To this date you have refused to explain why you think God commanded Moses and the COI to kill sinners. If you think you have, then please repost what you said about it here. Otherwise, please state your position concisely and clearly. Thank you.

wow!! God is long-suffering!! i would have zapped him when he commanded the children be put to death!!

and what about manasseh? 50 years of slaughter and child sacrifice, yet God bore long with him til he repented. i wouldnt have cared if he were going to repent or not....zap!!