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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Mountain Man] #116125
07/17/09 04:23 AM
07/17/09 04:23 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: västergötland
M: Can anyone be judged, numbered, and sealed one of the 144,000 before the outpouring of the LR and translated alive when Jesus arrives?

T: Hmm, your assuming the stance that the 144000 are a different group from the great number whom could not be counted?

Nope. My question is valid no matter what one believes about the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. What thinkest thou?
Daniels interpretation of the writing on the wall in old Babylon mentioned judged and numbered, but in that particular case sealing for destruction rather than for salvation.
I think it is clear from the couple of texts by Paul that mention the seal that it is available to all Christians during all times. Wether that is answer to your question or not depends entirely on how you look at the 144000. The exclusivist view would dismiss my point while the 144000=the great multitude view could affirm it.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Bobryan] #116152
07/17/09 02:18 PM
07/17/09 02:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Bobryan
The Latter Rain does not begin until after the saints of God are sealed (Maranatha 200-201) and until after the National Sunday Law.

The Great Multitude of Rev 7 are not the same thing as the 144,000 'in number' who are translated. They are the larger group of saints.

Mar 200 - 201 seems to say:

1. The shaking purges out the unconverted members
2. The shaking occurs during the NSL crisis
3. Those who remain in the church are sealed as part of the 144,000
4. They receive the LR
5. The LR empowers them to proclaim the 3AMs with renewed power.

Did I miss something or get the order wrong? Also, where in the order of events does the IJ of the living occur: before or after they are sealed?

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: vastergotland] #116170
07/17/09 07:28 PM
07/17/09 07:28 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: västergötland
I think it is clear from the couple of texts by Paul that mention the seal that it is available to all Christians during all times. Wether that is answer to your question or not depends entirely on how you look at the 144000. The exclusivist view would dismiss my point while the 144000=the great multitude view could affirm it.
a mild correction, i think the "sealing" applied all the way back to adam and eve when i realized it had been applied only to "christians".

otherwise i have to completely agree with you. those who have been sealed have at least a start on the character of God, find it attractive over the character of satan, regardless of where they come from.

but in the final day the sabbath will be the ultimate test of who truly has that character of Christ. for far too many attraction to even the least of one of satans characteristics will lead us to join what we have in common with. for others of us it will be because we never developed faith and trust and we will leave because of fear.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: vastergotland] #116189
07/18/09 12:07 AM
07/18/09 12:07 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
M: Can anyone be judged, numbered, and sealed one of the 144,000 before the outpouring of the LR and translated alive when Jesus arrives?

V: Hmm, your assuming the stance that the 144000 are a different group from the great number whom could not be counted?

M: Nope. My question is valid no matter what one believes about the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. What thinkest thou?

V: Daniels interpretation of the writing on the wall in old Babylon mentioned judged and numbered, but in that particular case sealing for destruction rather than for salvation.
I think it is clear from the couple of texts by Paul that mention the seal that it is available to all Christians during all times. Wether that is answer to your question or not depends entirely on how you look at the 144000. The exclusivist view would dismiss my point while the 144000=the great multitude view could affirm it.

Are you suggesting the 144,000/Great Multitude symbolize numbered and sealed believers since (the beginning of time, the beginning of the Christian era, or when)?

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Mountain Man] #116259
07/18/09 10:40 AM
07/18/09 10:40 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: västergötland
M: Can anyone be judged, numbered, and sealed one of the 144,000 before the outpouring of the LR and translated alive when Jesus arrives?

V: Hmm, your assuming the stance that the 144000 are a different group from the great number whom could not be counted?

M: Nope. My question is valid no matter what one believes about the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. What thinkest thou?

V: Daniels interpretation of the writing on the wall in old Babylon mentioned judged and numbered, but in that particular case sealing for destruction rather than for salvation.
I think it is clear from the couple of texts by Paul that mention the seal that it is available to all Christians during all times. Wether that is answer to your question or not depends entirely on how you look at the 144000. The exclusivist view would dismiss my point while the 144000=the great multitude view could affirm it.

Are you suggesting the 144,000/Great Multitude symbolize numbered and sealed believers since (the beginning of time, the beginning of the Christian era, or when)?
Since the beginning of such a time when the first person was in need of being sealed with the Holy Spirit and could be numbered among Gods people.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: vastergotland] #116273
07/18/09 03:10 PM
07/18/09 03:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. I hear you saying they are one and the same group and that it includes people who have been sealed since the Fall of man.

Now, what do you believe about the IJ of the living? Are you in harmony with the view espoused in the SOP?

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Mountain Man] #116285
07/18/09 06:39 PM
07/18/09 06:39 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
i wonder how many people who have never heard of the ij are striving to be Christlike, and how many who have heard of the ij but rejected it as they understood it are also striving to be Christlike.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: Mountain Man] #116323
07/19/09 12:23 PM
07/19/09 12:23 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. I hear you saying they are one and the same group and that it includes people who have been sealed since the Fall of man.

Now, what do you believe about the IJ of the living? Are you in harmony with the view espoused in the SOP?
I am too ignorant regarding the SOP view of the IJ to give a proper answer to your question.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: vastergotland] #116326
07/19/09 02:10 PM
07/19/09 02:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Does it matter if we understand what Jesus is doing in the MHP? Or, is it largely irrelevant so long as we are striving to live up to the light we have embraced in Jesus? Ellen White wrote this about it:

Those who would share the benefits of the Saviour's mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God. The precious hours, instead of being given to pleasure, to display, or to gain seeking, should be devoted to an earnest, prayerful study of the word of truth. The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {GC 488.2}

Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's [Re: vastergotland] #116327
07/19/09 02:25 PM
07/19/09 02:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
M: Thomas, thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. I hear you saying they are one and the same group and that it includes people who have been sealed since the Fall of man.

Now, what do you believe about the IJ of the living? Are you in harmony with the view espoused in the SOP?

V: I am too ignorant regarding the SOP view of the IJ to give a proper answer to your question.

Very well, then, what do YOU believe about the IJ of the living? Also, can you afford to remain in ignorance of the view of the IJ God gave to Ellen White? Listen:

Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In His sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for willful blindness. . . {5BC 1145.2}

We shall not be held accountable for the light that has not reached our perception, but for that which we have resisted and refused. A man could not apprehend the truth which had never been presented to him, and therefore could not be condemned for light he had never had. But if he had opportunity to hear the message, and to become acquainted with the truth, and yet refused to improve his opportunity, he will be among the number of whom Christ said, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Those who deliberately place themselves where they will not have an opportunity of hearing the truth, will be reckoned among those who have heard the truth, and persistently resisted its evidences (RH April 25, 1893). {5BC 1145.3}

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