So do I, plain and simple.

The dissagreement is NOT over whether or not God slay's the wicked, but HOW. Is hell physical pain in literal fire, or is it the mental anquish such as Jesus went through in the garden and upon the cross of the pain that my sins caused him in them sepperating him from the Father, which was so great that he hardly noticed the physical pain.

Ok well the lake of fire is a real place. A furnace if you will which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
God Bless,
Will

Will,

The figurative expression "lake of fire" is used 4 time in Revelation (19:20, 20:10, 20:14 and 20:15). Those verses describe 6 things that will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" - The Beast, The False Prophet, The Devil, Death, Hell, and all whose names that are not in the Book of Life. (Notice that it is not reserved only for the devil and his angels - same as Matt. 25:41.) Limiting the interpretation of "lake of fire" to a literal pit of fire that literally burns things up seems more difficult with the inclusion of things that are intangible (meaning not made of material), such as death and hell. (Even consider the figurative incongruity of the actual words used - "body of water" + fire, which is somewhat of an oxymoron.)

The language of Revelation is primarily figurative and symbolic and should not be read as simply being a literal description of events, creatures and people from earth's history. Such symbolic language depicts a greater Truth that mere words do not adequately convey. Part of the symbolism of Revelation is found in the numbers and sets of specific numbers of things used by John. The number "4" represents "universal", as in an event of complete world-wide application. The number "6" is symbolic of sin, rebellion, confusion, conflict, chaos, sinful mankind, a falling short of the perfect number "7". So in these 4 verses we see a double symbol of destruction - fire + lake - combined with its object, all of the atributes and agents of sin. (Large bodies of water such as the sea or a lake had a sinister destructive quality to be feared. Recall the terror of the disciples in the storm on the lake.) Repeated mention of this "lake of fire" 4 times means it will be a universally destructive force that will impact the whole world. What will meet its end is identified and reinforced by a specific set of 6 figures of sinfulness. All that is sin will be destroyed by the greatest power known to mankind. It is the power of love. God is love. Love is His glory.

Tom

I tihnk some clarification is in order here.
1. Lake of fire will be a real place i.e. gnashing of teeth.
2. Lake of fire is made for the devil and his angels, but not limited to them. refer to the book of Matthew for these references.
3. The earth will be purified by...Fire, and melt away all the elements refer to I believe it is 2Peter.

I do not see any metaphors, or symbolism when a person is thrown into the lake of fire.

Question: Who believes that the lake of fire is not for real.. A yes or no is all that is needed, any more will be filtered.
God Bless,
Will

[ December 06, 2004, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Will ]

Will, I agree with you that the lake of fire is real fire. But the wicked are not tossed in the lake of fire, rather God rains fire down upon them, and this fire becomes a lake of fire. The Bible consistently compares the lake of fire to the fire and brimstone God rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrha. There is no reason to think the lake of fire is anything other than real fire.

Genesis
19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Mark
6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

2 Peter
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

NOTE: the third angel's message is referring to the lake of fire, not the second coming.

Tom Wetmore, you raise a very good point regarding the demise of hell and death in the lake of fire. I'm not so sure, however, we should decide the lake of fire is not real fire because hell (i.e., the grave) and death do not survive it. Of course, the reason hell and death not survive the lake of fire is the fact no one will ever die again. But the potential for hell and death will continue to exist, in theory, so long as the universe is populated by beings capable of sinning and dying. What do you think?

Tom Ewall and Kevin, I don't expect you guys to agree with the way I used the texts posted above, but what do you guys make of the word "vengeance" in the following quote (also cited above)?

Jude
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

BTW, Tom, your analogy of the snake bite does not fit in the context of sin and death. It does make senes the way God used it, in light of the "look and live" principle. According to your theory, if the wicked look, they aren't going to live, they're going to melt and die.

Hi Mike:
Many cities in the ancient world were re-built after distruction, but not Sodom and Gamorah, their distruction was eternal and in that way an example of the eternal vengence. We are told that when Lot choose to live there, it was due to it being so lush, but it's become a very barren desert where not even the water (the dead sea) is able to support life. Quite an example of eternal death. But they only suffered the first death from the fire.

You have been bringing up excellent posts in other lines about how of all the beings God created, the odds were great indeed that someone would choose to rebel, and God kept control of the situation and was prepared for it.

The second death is after these questions have been answered. The final judgment is to help the lost get a clear understanding of all what happened, and showing the uglyness of their evil, the chances missed, but they don't ask for another chance (otherwise the promise "Whosoever commeth unto me I will in nowise cast out" could apply) but instead they only bow and confess that God is who God claims to be and that God is right, but refuse to go further. The suffering while there is even the smallest amount of sin in them is the strugle from self justification to realizing that they are indeed wrong, and the intence conflect between their deepest desire (which they have constantly fought against) and their sinful nature (which they nurtured and developed) and no longer want to live the evil lives they are living but also refuse the healing and decide that they no more want to live and choose speperation from the only source of life.

Again, the eternal desolation of Sodom and Gamorah is an EXAMPLE of the final distruction, but Jesus in the garden is someone not going through a mere example, but is litterally being distroyed but yet, at the same time, streanthened by the ACTUAL lake of fire. Jesus is the only one person to fully expirence the lake of fire as of this time, and in the garden we see the real thing. That is why we need to focus on the closing moments of the life of Jesus.

It's that same lake we see through a glass darkly as it burns away our sin, so that when we see face to face we can live forever in the eternal fire (Isaiah 33) It is also literally coals from this very lake that we heap upon our enemies when we show kindness to them.

Kevin, as I see it, Jesus endured the wrath of God in the same way the 144,000 will endure the wrath of God. So, His experience is not an example of the unsaved in the lake of fire. Instead, Satan, the scapegoat, is an example of the unsaved, who die with their sins in the lake of fire. This interpretation does not require us to ignore or twist the obvious meaning of the scriptures I posted above.

"BTW, Tom, your analogy of the snake bite does not fit in the context of sin and death. It does make senes the way God used it, in light of the "look and live" principle. According to your theory, if the wicked look, they aren't going to live, they're going to melt and die."

I was asking a question by way of clarification. How would you answer the question? (there's no right or wrong answer -- I'm interested in your point of view)

What causes your death, the snake venom, or refusing to take the anti-venom?