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Re: The Wrath of God
#11595
12/03/04 10:09 PM
12/03/04 10:09 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I've not seen anywhere where you describe how the DA 764 principles play a part. Here they are:
1) The destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
2) The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
4) All they that hate Christ love death.
5) By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
7) At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8) Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.
How do they play a part?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11596
12/04/04 12:58 AM
12/04/04 12:58 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I'm seeing teachings here that are kooky to say the least. Regardless of what great theoplgian said, or conclusion they came to doesn't hold any weight with me at all. I am seeing the the twisting of the Bible in order to fit with what Sister White says, and not what Sister White says to agree with the bible.Anyone else find that to be just a wee bit strange? I definitely do. The lake of fire is made for the devil and his angels. According to what people are seriously theoriuzing here thatr the fire is God is telling me that God is for the devil. Crazy souniding isn't it especially when taken at face value. My Bible teaches that sinners will be destroyed, and to skew the direct question that requires a straight response is short of deceitful. Theories? Lets see what my Bible says: quote:
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Weird that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels.
Lets see what Sister White says here:
quote:
I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance.
So definitely the destruciton of the wicked is not for the heck of it or to flex some muscle. The cases have been decided for either salvation or for destruction. The wicked are going to be destroyed not by some falling rocks, but by the very wrath of the Lamb:
quote:
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Still doubting that God is coming and will detroy the wicked?
quote:
Matthew 13:41-43
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Lets err on the side of God and not man's own understanding.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11597
12/04/04 06:09 AM
12/04/04 06:09 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11598
12/04/04 04:03 PM
12/04/04 04:03 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Okay, Tom, let's go through your quote: quote:
The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Yes, if we divorce this insight from the rest of the Bible and the SOP, it would seem that the brightness of God’s countenance, His glory, is what destroys the wicked in a lake of fire. But how does this insight vindicate God? How does it make Him less responsible for the death and destruction of the wicked? How is it less “arbitrary” than the view I have been advocating?
quote:
A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
Why would it cause the loyal angels to doubt? Is it because they would wonder why God’s brightness killed them? How would they make the connection? How would they put two and two together? How would they figure out that it was God’s glory that killed the rebellious angels?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11599
12/05/04 02:31 AM
12/05/04 02:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Yes, if we divorce this insight from the rest of the Bible and the SOP, it would seem that the brightness of God’s countenance, His glory, is what destroys the wicked in a lake of fire.
This isn't an isolated statement of hers. She uses the same logic many times. It's all throughout the two books she wrote which most comprehensively treat the Great Controversy theme, The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy. For example, in Chapter One of DA she wrote:
quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2.
This is what the Plan of Salvation is all about. Making known God's character. She says this time and time again.
Note that the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government. Is this really true? If the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government, does this mean that God doesn't use force often? Most of the time He uses the principles of love and truth, but when that doesn't work, He falls back on force?
She goes on to write, in the same chapter
quote:
The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, [Satan] charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception.
With how many has Satan been successful with these lies?
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35)
Over and over we are told how Satan seeks to vest God with his own attributes and lead others to view his work as God's work.
quote:
He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. (DA 21, 22)
Over and over we see Satan seeking to blame God for what he has done and what he is. DA 764 is by no means "isolated."
The Scriptures present the same view. I presented 10 texts from the Scriptures regarding the wrath of God, none of which have been discussed. That destruction comes when God allows those who have rejected Him suffer the results of His consequences is shown again and again in Scripture. (See e.g. Deut. 31:17,18; Jer. 33:5; 2 Chron. 29:6,8; 2 Kings 17:17-20; Isa. 57:17; Rom. 1:18-32)
The full revelation of God's character is seen in Jesus Christ. He never hurt anyone who rejected Him. He certanly never killed anyone. His response was to forgive them. When His presence was not desired, He left.
quote:
But how does this insight vindicate God? How does it make Him less responsible for the death and destruction of the wicked? How is it less “arbitrary” than the view I have been advocating?
The truth vindicates God because it shows that God is not responsible for sin or death. That's Satan's accuasation.
quote:
If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. (MB 62)
God and sin cannot co-exist. This is not because God "punishes" sin or does something special to it, but simply because the nature of sin is such that it cannot co-exist with God. If someone chooses death, God will honor that choice, but He won't kill anyone.
Because God loves us and knows the destruction sin will cause for those who choose to follow Satan, He hates sin and warns us of its consequences. He warns us that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
"Arbitrary" means not "by individual discretion rather than fixed by law." In my view, sin causes death. In your view, God is the author of death.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11600
12/05/04 04:06 AM
12/05/04 04:06 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
In my view, sin causes death. In your view, God is the author of death.
In my view, God uses fire to punish and destroy the wicked in a lake of fire. In your view, it is the unconcealed brightness of God that causes the wicked to die. According to both views, the reason why the wicked suffer the second death is because they refused to comply with the condition of salvation.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11601
12/05/04 04:34 AM
12/05/04 04:34 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I was reading the Bible today and came across a verse that tells us that God will destroy the wicked, and we are not talking about His Glory either. There isn't any wiggle room for this even though I can definitely understand the desire to study and learn about things, but this is different than proposing ideas that are contrary to Scripture: quote:
Isaiah 11:4
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11602
12/06/04 05:13 AM
12/06/04 05:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
In my view, God uses fire to punish and destroy the wicked in a lake of fire. In your view, it is the unconcealed brightness of God that causes the wicked to die. According to both views, the reason why the wicked suffer the second death is because they refused to comply with the condition of salvation.
If a snake bites you, and I offer you anti-venom, and you refuse to take it and die, what killed you? Was it the snake venom, or your refusal to take the anti-venom?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11603
12/06/04 02:55 PM
12/06/04 02:55 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 635
New York
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Will, I'm sorry but that text can go at least as well, if not better, with the view we are presenting. We agree that God does kill, our dissagreement is whether the killing is by God doing two sepperate things, one nice to the saved and a second not-so-nice, such as roast in a fire akin to what wouls happen if we lit a match, to the lost. Or if God's love is the fire which cleanses us from sin now and causes his pressence to be heaven, or if we develope a habbit of resisting his love now and allow sin to control us, that we will hold on to sin as it is killed by his pressence, so that his pressence becomes hell and death for us.
Or in otherwords, does God do two acts, or one act with two results.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11604
12/06/04 04:01 PM
12/06/04 04:01 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I dont know Kevin since the questions you ask seem tricky to say the least. I'm a simpleton who reads "God will slay the wicked", and understand it to mean just that. Everyone may have a differing opinion which is really a preference vs a conviction in the truth which does not change, and is not a preference. I believe that He will slay the wicked plain and simple.
God Bless,
Will
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