Okay, Ikan, that's only right and fair. I believe the quotes you posted agree with the one John posted above, that is, hell fire is real fire, it's not symbolic of the glory of God. The idea that the lake of fire is not real fire ignores the obvious meaning of scripture and inspiration.

EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Yes, it is a shame that we degrade the powerful fire at the end to something as small and insignificant and weak as the love of God.

I have two questions. First of all, we know that the wicked will suffer for different amounts of time, some for a short amount of time, and others for many days. How is that the lake of fire does not kill them immediately? Does God keep them alive, so they will feel the pain of the fire until a certain accumluation of pain has been met and God says, "That's enough. Their scalding pain has reached the point where it is exactly equivalent to the evil they did. They can now cease to exist." Maybe He doesn't let them stay in for too long at a time so they don't burn completely away, but He "dips" them. Puts them in for a little bit, measures the pain they've suffered, takes them out before they've burned to much, lets them recover a bit, and then dips them back in, and makes another pain measurement.

The second question is that there are principles regarding the judgment which God has revealed. Among them are:

1) The destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
2) The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
4) All they that hate Christ love death.
5) By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
7) At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8) Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

My question is, how are these principles realized?

For your convenience, I'm posting the DA quote from which these priniciples are gathered here:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

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Kevin, there is nothing small or insignificant about the love of God. He is all powerful, and so is His love. Only a loving God can punish and destroy the wicked in a lake of fire. "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten." Rev 3:19.

Tom, it is impossible to explain how the wicked will punish and perish, according to their sins, in the lake of fire. But our inability to explain it does not mean it isn't so. God created the world in six days, but can you explain how?

Mike, is this an answer to my request to harmonize your views with DA 764? This seems like an arbitrary answer. Many of your answers seem arbitrary. Is God arbitrary? Or do the principles involved in the Great Controversy tie together?

In Jesus Christ we see the character of God revealed. The Good News is "if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Do our views agree with the truth as it is in Jesus?

If our views agree with what's been revealed in the Bible and the SOP, then yes they do. Those bodies of literature reveal the truth as it is in Jesus.

But the ideas that the lake of fire is symbolic -- or that God doesn't kill -- those don't agree with Inspiration, not at all.

Tom, as you know, I have repeatedly posted an answer to the list you have compiled from the SOP regarding the death of the wicked and the glory of God. How do I harmonize her two views? Again, it is obvious, at least to me, that both play a part in the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire.

In my opinion, there is nothing unloving or unChristlike about Jesus using fire and brimstone to punish and destroy the wicked in the lake of fire. Yes, it is a "strange act", but nevertheless, God's ways are not our ways, we may not be able to comprehend everythng that makes sense to God, at least, not here and now. But, in heaven, it will make sense. We will praise God, with the holy angels, for the punishment and destruction of the wicked.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Mike, the reason I keep asking the same question over and over again, is because it hasn't been addressed. You have stated you have addressed it, but you haven't actually done so. To be fair, the fault may be my own in that I have not been explicit enough in what I'm asking. I'll try to rectify that here and be more clear as to what I'm asking.

1) The destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that force is not a governing principle of God's government. Here again she states that the destruction of the wicked is not due to an act of arbitrary power of God's part. Here's another quote that brings out the same principle:

quote:

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God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. (RH 9/7/98)

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What does it mean to say that compelling force is not a principle of God's government? Does that mean that God prefers not to use it, but sometimes (or perhaps very, very often) He makes an exception? How does your view of the destruction of the wicked harmonize with the fact that force is not a governing principle of God's government and the fact that here it is explicilty stated that it is not being used for the destruction of the wicked? (equating "power" with "force")

2) The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
4) All they that hate Christ love death.

I'll group these together. I'll add the following quote, which makes the same point:

quote:

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God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

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Here it is stated that the wicked destroy themselves by cutting themselves off from God and it is explicitly stated that God destroys no man. How does your view harmonize with these points?

5) By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

I'll add this one:

quote:

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)

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This points out that God is a consuming fire to sin and that God's glory must destroy those who insist on clinging to sin. This points out clearly that sin is deadly, and that God's purpose is to do whatever He can to get people to release from it, so they will not be destroyed. It also points out, along with the other DA quote, that it is the glory of God that destroys the wicked.

7) At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8) Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

These last principles show that reaping the full result of sin leads to destruction. We have seen above that it is the glory of God that destroys. So this is telling us that had God not allowed Satan to continue existing, but instead had allowed him to reap the results of his sin, which would have led to his destruction, the other angels would have been confused, thinking that God was responsible for their demise rather than sin.

How does your view of the destruction of the wicked harmonize with any of these points?

Tom, force is not how God operates. Punishing Satan without due process of law would be an abuse of His power. But when found guilty by a jury of his peers, then it is no longer considered “force” when God punishes and destroys him in the lake of fire. It is perceived as a strange, but loving, and merciful act. We reap what we sow, but it’s according to the divine order of God. God gave Satan and sinners life and probation to demonstration the consequences of sin – unrest and unhappiness. But the punishment for sinning, for refusing to abide in Jesus, is death by execution.

Yes, the wicked cut themselves off from God’s protection when they refuse to abide in Jesus. We are on probation, borrowed time, and the continuation of our life forces are promised on condition that we abide in Jesus, and live in harmony with His law. In judgment, God decides whether we deserve to live or die, but He destroys no man arbitrarily. We determine our own outcome by choosing or refusing to abide in Jesus. God simply acknowledges and accepts our choice, and then He fulfills His promise.

If our destiny is death, then God will do what He has promised to do, that is, punish and destroy us in the lake of fire. In so doing, He pulls the plug, and our life forces cease to function and we die. We cannot pull the plug ourselves because we do not have access to it. God can gives and takes life. God alone manages the consequences of our choices. We will not die, in the lake of fire, until God pulls the plug. And, He will not pull the plug until we have paid the wages of our sins. Then we die.

To be perfectly honest with you, Tom, I do not pretend to understand how the glory of God can be a consuming fire. I do not understand the science of fire and divine glory enough to comprehend this concept. So, I cannot answer questions involving this issue to your satisfaction. I know that light can be condensed and focused in such a way, like laser light, that it can be used discriminately to treat cancer or to cut steal. But just exactly how God’s glory will be used to punish and destroy the wicked, according to their sinfulness, I cannot say with certainty.

But this much I do know, and can answer with all confidence in the Holy Bible, God has, in both OT and NT times, used fire and flood and disease and famine and war to punish and destroy sinners. The Bible says that the fire God used to punish and destroy the wicked inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah is the same fire He will use to punish and destroy Satan, and all the unsaved, at the end of time. I have no reason to doubt the Word of God. It is plain and simple to understand.