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Re: The Wrath of God
#11635
12/10/04 08:42 PM
12/10/04 08:42 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Tom, force is not how God operates. Tom: Right. Mike: Punishing Satan without due process of law would be an abuse of His power. But when found guilty by a jury of his peers, then it is no longer considered “force” when God punishes and destroys him in the lake of fire. Tom: Force is "an act of aggression (as one against a person who resists)." Force does not cease being force regardless of whether a trial has taken place or not. One could assert that force in one instance would not be just, and another it is just, but whether a trial has taken place or not does not convert force into non-force. Mike: It is perceived as a strange, but loving, and merciful act. We reap what we sow, but it’s according to the divine order of God. Tom: This is exactly right. God gives the wicked over to their choices, and they reap what they have sown. This is perceived as a strange, but loving, and merciful act. Mike: But the punishment for sinning, for refusing to abide in Jesus, is death by execution. Tom: The punishment for sinning is death. EGW explains exactly what "reaping what they have sown" means. quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)
quote:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (GC 36)
Mike: If our destiny is death, then God will do what He has promised to do, that is, punish and destroy us in the lake of fire. In so doing, He pulls the plug, and our life forces cease to function and we die. We cannot pull the plug ourselves because we do not have access to it. God can gives and takes life. God alone manages the consequences of our choices. We will not die, in the lake of fire, until God pulls the plug. And, He will not pull the plug until we have paid the wages of our sins. Then we die.
Tom: quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
Mike, what's going on here is very simple. The wicked cling to their sin. They become identified with it. To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. The glory of God, which destroys sin, destroys them. That's it. There's no need for a theory where God casts them in a lake of fire and stands by with a stopwatch waiting until the magic moment arrives when He can say "Enough! Their pain has paid for their misdeeds. Torture can end now."
Sin causes the destruction of the wicked because it's sinful. It's bad. It is so out of harmony with God's character that to is God is a consuming fire. That fire destroys sin. Where there's more sin, there's more destruction. Simple.
Where you and I differ, it seems to me, is that you do not think that sin causes death. You think sin is something which has no harmful consequences in and of itself. The problem with sin is that God doesn't like it, so He punishes those who do it. The wicked die because God kills them to punish them for doing something He doesn't like. God is arbitrary, just like Satan has accused Him of being. This is how your view appears to me.
My view is that sin is deadly. It kills us, because it is based on a principle which is suicidal, which is the principle of living while separated from God. This is impossible. God permits it for a time, as an exception to what should happen (death), in order that the principles of sin can be seen. If God had permitted sin to meet its deserved consequence, death, then God could have been seen as the One causing death, rather than what really does cause death, which is sin. This is exactly what DA 764 says:
quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.
Because God loves us, He warns us of the consequence of sin. It is sin that kills, not God. Sin is the enemy. God is not arbitrary, and God does not use force to get His way. God destroys sin by the principles of His government, which are love and truth, not compelling force.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11636
12/11/04 12:18 AM
12/11/04 12:18 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Southwest USA
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quote:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. (GC 36)
Okay, it looks like you got me on that one. But not really. If you take what I posted in its context, the way I use the word “executioner” does not contradict the fact God punishes and destroys the wicked in the lake of fire. It looks like playing with words isn’t cutting it for us. Perhaps we should stick with entire ideas!
Yes, to sin wherever found our God is a consuming fire, and He will also punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire, using real fire, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. Plain and simple, right? But not to you, I know. Coming from someone who doesn’t believe Jesus had to die in order to satisfy the legal demands of the law, I’m not surprised you find it hard to believe God will punish and destroy sinners with fire and brimstone.
No, I don’t believe sin naturally causes death, because if it did, God wouldn’t have needed to prevent us from accessing the tree of life. See Gen 3:22. Yes, I do believe, and know from experience, that sinning causes suffering, but it doesn’t kill me. Instead, I go right on living. Why? Because sin doesn’t kill. Yes, sinning, not sin, can lead to an untimely death, but everyone dies eventually. Why? Because God will not allow us to eat from the tree of life.
If sin kills, why do you keep on insisting that it is the glory of God that kills and consumes sinners? If you truly want to divorce God from the death of sinners, then shouldn’t you insist that sin kills sinners? that God merely chooses to stop whatever it is He's doing to prevent sin from killing them? But wait a minute, that implicates God too, doesn't it?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11637
12/11/04 05:28 AM
12/11/04 05:28 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Okay, it looks like you got me on that one. But not really. If you take what I posted in its context, the way I use the word “executioner” does not contradict the fact God punishes and destroys the wicked in the lake of fire. It looks like playing with words isn’t cutting it for us. Perhaps we should stick with entire ideas! Tom: I'm not trying to "get you." I'm trying to point out where your thinking is fuzzy. You seem unable to admit your thinking is wrong in any way, regardless of how clearly inspiration contradicts it. You say God is responsible for sin, even though inspiration denies it. You say God is the author of death, even though inspiration says this is what Satan is trying to get us to think. You say that sin does not cause death, even though that's what inspiration says many, many times. You say that God kills the wicked in the end by some arbitrary means, even though inspiration says the reverse. You say God is an executioner, even though inspiration says He's not. I have appreciated dialoging with you, and have learned a lot. I plan to continue as long as you are willing. I have appreciated your tone as of late. Very much in fact. I pray a lot for you (and for me in dialoging with you). I see that you have a vision of God's character which is to my view let's say not flattering. I am hopeful that somehow in some way the things that I write may help you view God in a better, and more accurate light. God is infinitely good. Our conceptions of goodness are off. This is an area we need to be constantly growing in. I'm not writing this as if my views are perfect, far from it. I hope we can learn from each other, and if our views of God's character can improve, that will be a great thing. Mike: Yes, to sin wherever found our God is a consuming fire, and He will also punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire, using real fire, just like Sodom and Gomorrah. Plain and simple, right? But not to you, I know. Coming from someone who doesn’t believe Jesus had to die in order to satisfy the legal demands of the law, I’m not surprised you find it hard to believe God will punish and destroy sinners with fire and brimstone. Tom: Oops. Maybe I spoke to quickly about tone. It's still not too bad, but it's kind of oozing in the wrong direction. I've been trying to be careful with mine. It's always a temptation to say things too sharply. What you just wrote seems a bit on the sarcastic side to me, don't you think? You've mischaracterized what I think regarding Christ's death. I absolutely believe that Christ had to die to meet the legal demands of the law, and I have I am quite sure never written anything to the contrary. Please retract that statement, or produce some statement of mine to back up your allegation. It's possible I may have written something where you have misunderstood my meaning, but I'm quite sure I didn't write something along the lines of what you wrote because I don't believe that. Mike: No, I don’t believe sin naturally causes death, because if it did, God wouldn’t have needed to prevent us from accessing the tree of life. Tom: I've asked you not to use the "naturally." I don't know what you mean by that. You could leave out the word "naturally" and just say you don't believe that sin causes death, or choose some other word, but "naturally" is a poor choice of words for reasons I've already explained. See Gen 3:22. Your reasoning is faulty regarding God's not allowing man to eat from the tree of life, which has already been explained. The death that God warned Adam and Ever regarding their eating of the forbidden tree was the second death. The reason they did not die the second death is because Christ died for them. This is clearly explained in FW 21, 22. Please read! Mike: Yes, I do believe, and know from experience, that sinning causes suffering, but it doesn’t kill me. Instead, I go right on living. Why? Because sin doesn’t kill. Tom: No!!!!! You go on living because Christ died for you. That's why! Give honor and glory where it's due! Read FW 21, 22. Mike: Yes, sinning, not sin, can lead to an untimely death, but everyone dies eventually. Why? Because God will not allow us to eat from the tree of life. Tom: This is confusing the first and second deaths. Mike: If sin kills, why do you keep on insisting that it is the glory of God that kills and consumes sinners? Tom: Because that's what inspiration teaches. quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
quote:
The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
quote:
Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (FILB 176)
quote:
If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. (MB 62)
Mike: If you truly want to divorce God from the death of sinners, then shouldn’t you insist that sin kills sinners? that God merely chooses to stop whatever it is He's doing to prevent sin from killing them? But wait a minute, that implicates God too, doesn't it?
Tom: Why are you so interested in implicating God? That's what Satan want to do. God is innocent. Our job is to put God in a good light, which is the truth. God is good. Sin kills. God, because He loves the sinner, hates sin and wants to save us from it. We are saved from sin when we see the goodness of God, which is most clearly seen in Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." This is the Good News! God really, really is like Jesus. To know God is life eternal.
I do insist that sin kills sinners and that God will stop doing what He does to prevent them from dying, which is providing Christ to bear their sin.
quote:
We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.(MB 116)
As to implicating God, in what way does the following implicate God?
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
I say this doesn't implicate God, it exonerates Him! God eliminates sin in a manner which is in harmony with the principles which govern His government, love and truth. God shows that sin causes death. The universe is safe for eternity.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11638
12/11/04 08:41 AM
12/11/04 08:41 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Amen Brother Tom! So clearly said. Glory to His unspotted Character!
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11639
12/11/04 04:16 PM
12/11/04 04:16 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I realize that, in your mind, I am demonizing the character of God. And for that, I am sorry. As I said before, I would rather not talk about the wrath of God, the lake of fire, because to defend it makes it seem like I’m some kind of evil person. I didn’t mean for my post to sound sarcastic, but I will try harder in future to avoid sounding sarcastic.
I do not believe using the same words Sister White used in a different light contradicts the light. But I realize now that it causes confusion, and it causes you to worry about my understanding of the character of God, and my influence as a minister of the gospel. So, I will try to be more careful when choosing words to describe the wrath of God.
I have read FW 21, 22 and here’s what I got out of it: “And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression.” Our first parents were not annihilated the second they sinned because Jesus immediately paid the penalty for their transgression. He is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Annihilated? Now that’s a word that hasn’t been used yet. You’re right, of course, the first death is not the penalty for sinning. We die the first death simply because we cannot eat from the tree of life. The first death is the result of natural law. That’s what I mean when I use the “n” word. We don’t die the first death because we sin, rather we die the first death because God will not allow us to eat from the tree of life.
Your view of the second death, and what causes it, sounds, to me, like the results of a divine natural law of some type. From what I hear you saying, sinners die in the presence of God because His awesome glory and exceeding brightness causes their flesh to melt off their bones. If this is true, and this is what the lake of fire is, then it sounds, to me, like sinners die a natural death. Whether one is the cause or the effect, it takes both to kill a sinner.
Dying in the presence of God implicates God. I realize you don’t see it that way, but I do. And I don’t have a problem with it. I’m glad God is in control, and not sin, self, Satan, or death. I don’t see how your view makes God any less responsible for the death of the unsaved than my view. If the lake of fire is nothing more than the glory of God, then it is the glory of God that punishes and destroys sinners according to their sinfulness, some suffering longer than others.
Again, I totally agree that, in some cases, sinners are killed and consumed by the glory of God’s brightness. The Bible and the SOP clearly teach it, and I do not doubt it for one second. My problem is the idea that the flood, fires, disease and wars Jesus has used to kill millions of sinners in the past were not real, but symbolic of His glorious brightness. Such an idea, in my opinion, totally ignores the obvious meaning of God’s word, and I cannot countenance such a fabrication.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11640
12/12/04 04:03 AM
12/12/04 04:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thank your for your post. I appreciate the comments you made.
Thank you for reading FW 21, 22. There's quite a bit more to it than what you stated. It tells us that everything we have is of infinte value because it comes to us through the death of Christ and hence has value equivalent to the life of Christ. That's very powerful truth!
It tells us that the reason we, whether saint or sinner, live physically is because of the death of Christ. This is a point I've been trying to make. You asked why we live if sin kills. The answer to that question, an excellent question, is that we live only because of Christ's death. Without the death of Christ we would could not live even physically. "To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life." (DA 660)
Regarding the destruction of the wicked at the end, in my view they die because the wages of sin is death. God destoys sin by the principles of love and truth. God is vindicated.
According to your view (from my perspective), the wicked only die because God kills them. Sin in itself is not deadly. Their death is arbitrary. Satan was right in His accusations. God is not vindicated.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11641
12/14/04 04:13 PM
12/14/04 04:13 PM
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SDA
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Tom, my view insists that God punishes and then destroys the wicked in the lake of fire because they refused to abide in Jesus. "For it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Rom 12:19. To me, there is nothing arbitrary about God warning us, about promising us what He will do to us if we refuse to abide in Jesus.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11642
12/14/04 04:18 PM
12/14/04 04:18 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Is it safe to say that the main focal point is whether God will destroy the sinner(person), or sin?
Do I understand correctly that there is an agreement where God will destroy the wicked because of their sins?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11643
12/14/04 06:05 PM
12/14/04 06:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, here's the text from Romans 12:19-21 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Notice that God vengeance is manifest by being kind and good. God manifests His vengeance by being the same kind, gracious, compassionate God He always is. He's not schitzophrenic. His goodness is a balm to the rightoues and a consuming fire to the wicked. quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
This makes perfect sense to me. Your view (Mike) I don't understand. How is it that the wicked are not destroyed immediately when they are cast in the lake of fire? How can some of them suffer for many days? How does burning someone pay for the wickedness they have done? Is there a physical pain threshold for sin? Such and such a sin costs so many BTU's of pain?
Will, everyone agrees that God will destroy sin and sinners. The question is how? Some of us believe this is how:
"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)"
Others believe this is not how. Rather than being the glory of God, it is an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. Rather than God's very presence being a consuming fire, there's a different consuming fire, since evidently God as a consuming fire is insufficient. Rather than God consuming sin whereever it is found, God casts the wicked into a lake of fire, because God's consuming sin and destroying the wicked isn't sufficient. That is, this "Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." is not sufficient.
The bottom line issue that needs to be faced is, what do we think God is like? Is He really like Jesus Christ? Or is Satan right, and God has a dark side? This is the same issue we're facing on all the issues we're dealing with. Who's resonsponsible for sin? God or Satan? Who's responsible for death? God or Satan? Is God arbitrary? Is He cruel? These are the questions involved. Whether God destroys in a literal lake of fire is just a symptom of the cause. The question of questions is, "Who is God?"
To know God is eternal life.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11644
12/14/04 08:38 PM
12/14/04 08:38 PM
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quote:
How is it that the wicked are not destroyed immediately when they are cast in the lake of fire? How can some of them suffer for many days? How does burning someone pay for the wickedness they have done? Is there a physical pain threshold for sin? Such and such a sin costs so many BTU's of pain?
That's evidently the way it will be. Otherwise how are we to explain the fact that some will burn much longer than others, and Satan, the author of sin, will remain alive & burning long after all others have ceased burning, and have been reduced to ashes?
In all of God's plans there is equity and balance, and the final punishment for sin is no exception.
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