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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11645
12/14/04 09:40 PM
12/14/04 09:40 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 635
New York
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John, I'm sorry, but this question keeps coming up, I keep answering this question, but for some reason no one reads what I write on this topic, and keep repeating the same question.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11646
12/15/04 12:46 AM
12/15/04 12:46 AM
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Kevin, I've read you say that the fire of final punishment is symbolic; that's an unacceptable conclusion, contrary to the plain teaching of Inspiration.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11647
12/15/04 01:35 AM
12/15/04 01:35 AM
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.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11648
12/15/04 02:33 AM
12/15/04 02:33 AM
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Doug, I guess you mean what you posted on Nov. 18th, as follows? quote:
I think there is a scientific explanation for that. Briefly, God must seal up the tectonic plates which were ruptured at Noah's Flood. To do this God has chosen to melt the earth all over again. But this is done whilst the New Jerusalem is sitting on the earth. So the fires miss it.
Sorry, I missed that the first time around. Instead of calling that 'ignorance in action,' how about giving someone the benefit of the doubt that they just might have missed it, y'know? It happens. There are lots of posts to keep up with here.
Anyway, that line of thought seems to square with what Inspiration says. I'm not sure about the tectonics angle, but there doesn't seem to be anything that rules it out, and it's plausible enough. What's certain is that fires within the earth will erupt up from below, similar to what happened with the Flood. Only at the 3rd Coming it'll be fire erupting instead of water. There will also be fire raining down from heaven, as there was water raining down during the Flood:"Satan and his angels try to encourage the wicked multitude to action; but fire descends from Heaven, and unites with the fire in the earth, and aids in the general conflagration.
{3SG 86.1}
"Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As He called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from His arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years He will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons which He has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood.
{3SG 87.1}
"When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. 'But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up.'"
{3SG 87.2} Now, for those who say the lake of fire is symbolic: this passage from Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3 shows that it will be about as un-symbolic, in other words about as literal, as anyone can possibly imagine.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11649
12/15/04 04:24 AM
12/15/04 04:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Kevin, I've read you say that the fire of final punishment is symbolic; that's an unacceptable conclusion, contrary to the plain teaching of Inspiration.
John, just saying something doesn't make it true.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
It's hard to imagine this could be put any more plainly. How does your view harmonize with this?
Tom: How is it that the wicked are not destroyed immediately when they are cast in the lake of fire? How can some of them suffer for many days? How does burning someone pay for the wickedness they have done? Is there a physical pain threshold for sin? Such and such a sin costs so many BTU's of pain?
John: That's evidently the way it will be. Otherwise how are we to explain the fact that some will burn much longer than others, and Satan, the author of sin, will remain alive & burning long after all others have ceased burning, and have been reduced to ashes?
Tom: If we consider the option to a question, and that option is manifestly absurd, it behooves us to consider another option. If the blood of bulls and goats did not satisfy God in Old Testament times, what makes think He will be satisfied by BTU's of pain in the judgment? There's nothing in Jesus Christ that speaks of God being as you are suggesting.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11650
12/15/04 04:29 AM
12/15/04 04:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Kevin, I'd be interested in any SOP references you have. You don't need to post the whole thing, just the references would be fine. Thanks.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11651
12/15/04 05:45 AM
12/15/04 05:45 AM
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quote:
John, just saying something doesn't make it true.
When Inspiration says it, that makes it true. quote:
There's nothing in Jesus Christ that speaks of God being as you are suggesting.
How mistaken you are! Witness these words from the Lord Himself:Luke 12:
47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Matthew 22:
11 "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:
41 "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Jesus' love and goodness doesn't preclude His justice and severity towards those who finally reject His grace when all is said and done. As Paul said,"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:22. You wouldn't be saying these things, making these propositions that suggest God doesn't kill, that the fire of final punishment is symbolic, and such similar things if you'd made a very thorough study of the character of God. Your theories as they've been stated here contradict Inspiration on many fronts, Tom. Read the passage again a few posts above this one, from Spiritual Gifts vol. 3, for instance. It completely negates a lot of what you and Kevin have been saying in this thread."As He called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from His arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years He will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons which He has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood." Ignoring such passages doesn't make them go away. Neither are we at liberty to pick and choose which ones we accept, and which ones we toss away. They all harmonize into one coherent whole.
To get back to one of your points, then: how do you explain the fact that Satan will be kept alive and will burn and suffer much longer than anyone else?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11652
12/15/04 07:30 PM
12/15/04 07:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John, there is nothing in Christ's life that speaks of Him being cruel or arbitrary. The quotes you provided speak of the death of the wicked, which will be awful. But the cause of their death is not God arbitrarily causing them pain. Do you not see Christ's tenderness, compassion and graciousness with all those with whom He came in contact? This is what God is like! When you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father. That's the Good News. Here is revealed the character of God: quote:
Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9.
Please note that force is not a principle of God's government:
quote:
Satan's representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. His murmurings and complaints were groundless; and yet God allowed him to work out his theory. God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, feeling at liberty to cause him physical or mental suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan's creation.
How do the statements you quote fit in with the following principles?
1) The principle of compelling force is not to be found in God's government.
2) The judgement is not an arbitrary act of power of God.
3) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
4) God is the fountain of life. The wicked die because they choose to separate themselves from God.
5) The wicked die because they are out of so harmony with God that God's presence to them is a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys the wicked.
For the sake of completeness, here is the statement from which the principles were taken:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11653
12/15/04 11:12 PM
12/15/04 11:12 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, there is nothing more that can be said or quoted. You are convinced that all the quotes John and I have posted symbolize the glory of God. We do not.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11654
12/16/04 12:31 AM
12/16/04 12:31 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Well, Mike, you may have no more contributions and may wish to bow out (an amazing switch from your past), but I would think it wise to let John and others decide whether they wish to continue by letting them speak for themselves.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
I'm surprised at the emotion displayed by many whom I have great respect for. It is almost like many want a bloodthirsty, whip wielding, enemy roasting Jesus to be promoted.
Taking parable illustrations as literal is what evangelicals do with Lazurus in "Abraham's bosum" to justify an eternal hell! Even "Rapture" theories generate from ultra-literalisms of parables. Adventism is not founded on that, or we would be without most of our solid platforms.
God kills; no one here has denied that. The question is with what in His heart and how?
Revenge? Anger? Hatred? Kingly ire?...like humans would.
OR does He kill by a full display, a revealing Himself "as He is", His Character of Love and Energy and Creativeness, His fullest possible manifestation, which cancels out (like light does darkness) those souls so indentified with Hate, and Sin and Selfishness.
Literal fire? Sure, but not like any type of flamming material we have ever seen. And like Doug mentioned it will kindle everything flammable that is flammable. I find it rather ironic that the trash heaps(coal and oil)of the pre-flood days will be destroyed along with the trash heaps of the Last Days, sitting and rotting for a thousand years.
The Character (the real person) of God was what Moses had to hide from in the cleft of the rock, it is what takes away the breath of all the prophets and what made Sinai rumble and the Ark of the Covenant dangerous to touch. These were not displays by God designed to terrify, but rather the lifting of the veil, the allowing of us mere mortals to peek at the hugely unbelievable power who actually maintains the universe, Jesus the Upholder of ALL Planets.
[ December 16, 2004, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Ikan ]
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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