We are warned by the Scriptures themselves that we are to look for at least two, and better yet, three confirmations of every truth given in His word: 2 Corinthians 13:1.
"In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
So for every conclusion we draw we should be able to produce at least two or three Scriptures that attest to the fact. Concerning the character of God, we find that everything in the Bible must be understood in the light of the way that Jesus lived His life. He is the ultimate and perfect demonstration of what the Bible is all about— God's character.
Thus, Jesus' witness about himself tells us much about the character of God:
"Whatever the Father does, I do. . . all things." John 5:19-20.
"He that hast seen me hath seen the Father." John 14:8-9.
"I have kept my Father's commandments." John 15:10; Exodus 20:1-17.
"Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13.
Therefore God's law as well as the life of Jesus is a transcript of His character. And Christ's estimation of how the law is fulfilled and what perfection consists of, also tells us His view of the character of the Father.
"Love your enemies. . . be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 4:44-48.
"The Lord is righteous in all His ways." Psalm 145:17.
"There is no unrighteousness [law breaking] with God." Romans 9:14.
But man throughout history has seen God as being like himself in character. And this can be a fatal error, for life eternal is defined as knowing the character of God as His really is.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3.
"Thou thought I was altogether such as one as thyself, but I will reprove thee." Psalm 50:21.
"[They] changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like unto corruptible man." Romans 1:23.
"For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9.
The Scriptures warn us against applying man's definitions to God's actions. And there are numerous instances in the Bible that show us that God has, at times, totally different definitions for words than we do.
"No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation." [That is, we are not to use Webster's definitions, but let the Bible define itself.] 2 Peter 1:20-21.
For example, when "God slew Saul." 1 Chronicles 10:13-14.
The Bible defines this by saying that Saul killed himself. 1 Chronicles 10:4-5.
Likewise when the disciples interpreted Scripture according to man's definitions, and thought it was God's way to call fire down on their enemies, Jesus corrected them by saying, "You know not what spirit you are of, for the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives." Luke 9:51-56.
Again, when God said that He was going to destroy Israel for disobedience, He defined His words by adding, "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9.
Now, concerning Himself, God assures us three times that He will never change. He will always treat us exactly the same as He would have during the best days of our relationship with Him—that is, as if we had never done anything wrong.
"For I am the Lord, I change not: therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6.
". . .with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever." Hebrews 13:8.
Therefore, the word "wrath" must be defined both in the light of the way Jesus lived His life and in the light of God's declaration that He will never change. Two notable examples occur in the New Testament and two in the Old Testament:
"When he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for their hardness of heart. . ." Mark 3:5.
Man's wrath is always translated "thoo-mos" in the Greek, meaning to rush at someone passionately, fiercely, breathing hard, intent on killing them. But here in this verse, and wherever else God's wrath and Jesus's anger are referred to, it is translated from "or-gay", meaning to desire, or yearn after someone, to stretch after them longingly. So Mark 3:5 actually says: "Jesus looked around on them yearningly." Likewise, in the Old Testament, God's wrath is invariably translated from "ane-khar-ode", the glance that makes one shudder, the look that sets one trembling."
In Romans 1:17-18, 24 God's wrath is defined as His righteousness, and in verse 24 as giving them up to their own lusts.
Then in Isaiah 54:7-8 His wrath is defined as "forsaking", "hiding His face". And what causes Him to hide His face? The answer is five chapters away in Isaiah 59:1-2, that it is our iniquities that separate us from God and our sins that hide His face.
Hosea 11:1-8, 4:17. "How can I give you up? How shall I set you as Admah and Zeboim?" These are two cities which burned up with Sodom and Gomorrah. Therefore, this all happened not because God sent fire, but because they forced Him to withdraw from them, and the destruction that God had been protecting them from then fell upon them.
Let's examine some other specific instance of God's behavior, defining His meaning by His Word alone:

The Flood: "Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood; which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?" Job 22:15-17.

The Decimation of Israel by Her Enemies: "Evil is come because our God is not among us." Deuteronomy 31:17.

The Destruction of Jerusalem: "You sold yourselves, you divorced yourselves from God by your iniquities." Isaiah 50:1-2.

The Plagues of Egypt: "He cast upon them the fierceness of His anger, wrath, and indignation and trouble, by sending evil angels among them." Psalm 78:49.

That is, when men cast God out, who floods in? Satan. So wrath is defined as evil angels coming in to fill the vacuum left by God's departure. [See Exodus 12:23 and Revelation 9:11].
God goes even further to tell us in unmistakeable language what it is that will destroy the wicked in the end. It is not Himself, but they who destroy themselves as the inevitable consequences of their choices:
"His own iniquities shall take the wicked, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins." Proverbs 5:22.
"Shall a man take fire. . . and. . . not be burned?" Proverbs 6:27-28.
"They lay in wait for their own blood. . . and shall eat the fruit of their own way." Proverbs 1:18, 31.
"The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands." Psalm 9:15-16.
"His sword shall enter his own heart." Psalm 37:14-15.
"Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. Not God!
[See also Jeremiah 2:17, 19; Ezekiel 22:4, 31; Obadiah 15; Hosea 10:13].
All discussions concerning the wrath of God must ultimately end at the cross, however, for that is the final demonstration to mankind of what will actually happen to the wicked in the end. Jesus was the first in the entire universe to experience the second death, long before even Satan. But all who refuse His offer will ultimately experience for themselves what Jesus went through for them on the cross:
Did God kill His Son? No, He declared Himself forsaken: "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani" which literally means, "Why, God, are you leaving me alone to die?" ["Lama" = why; "sabach" from the Chaldean "sebaq" = left alone; "thani" = to die].
1 Chronicles 21:1 Versus 2 Samuel 24:1 God is often blamed for what Satan has done. [See also Job 1:12, 16 Versus Job 2:7].
Revelation 6:16 Versus Isaiah 25:9. God is not two-faced; the difference is in the people.

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Ikan, I did not mean to speak for John, so far as bowing out. But John and I agree that God will punish sinners for refusing to abide in Jesus, and that He will then destroy them in the lake of fire, a literal fire that not only consumes sinners, but every trace of sin.

I do not believe God is evil or demonic just because He punishes sinners before He destroys them in the lake of fire. The wrath of God is holy, just and righteous. He has used fire, flood, disease and war to punish and destroy sinners in the past, and He will resurrect them in the future to punish and destroy them again with fire.

Mike You said: "He has used fire, flood, disease and war to punish and destroy sinners in the past, and He will resurrect them in the future to punish and destroy them again with fire."

Punish sinners and then kill them again, after bringing them back to life? And that does not sound macabre to you? It's like luring a pregnant teenaged daughter home just to kill her..
Hmmmm...

Can it not be that He raises them to show them how they have put themselves on the wrong end of the great Controversy by showing them proofs beyond question, and that they choose not to repent even then? And because they are so wedded to their evil lives they perish??

Well each to their own opinion about what the Word says. The Lord established freedom of "beholding" Him long long ago. We become what we see Him as.

Care to elaborate on these points?

"For example, when "God slew Saul." 1 Chronicles 10:13-14.
The Bible defines this by saying that Saul killed himself. 1 Chronicles 10:4-5.

Likewise when the disciples interpreted Scripture according to man's definitions, and thought it was God's way to call fire down on their enemies, Jesus corrected them by saying, "You know not what spirit you are of, for the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives." Luke 9:51-56."

A lot's been written since I was away. I didn't even know I was away! I'd like to thank everyone for their participation in this thread. I've certainly learned a lot.

It's a bit frustrating to me that I keep asking the same questions over and over again and they never get answered. It would be like having a discussion about hell not being eternal, and having the parable of Lazarus and the rich man thrown in your face. You keep asking, how does this fit in with the rest of inspiration, and the answer comes back, "It says Lazarus is in hell! That's what it says!"

quote:

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God could have destroyed Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by so doing he would have given a precedent for the exercise of force. All the compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. He would not work on this line.

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Just one question this time. How does God destroy the wicked without using force?

Ikan, I do not disagree that there are situations where the glory of God consumes sinners. Nor, do I disagree that God takes credit for allowing someone to die, even when they kill themselves or someone else kills them. And, yes, Jesus rebuked John and James for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans. But the Bible also clearly says God has and will use fire and brimstone to punish and destroy sinners. Is it macabre? It may sound that way to us, but from God’s perspective it makes perfect sense, otherwise He wouldn’t do it.

Tom, it depends on how we use the word “force”. Luke, the Jedi, used the “force” for good. Call it what you want, force or power or justice, whatever, but one thing is certain, whether it is the glory of God or fire and brimstone that kills the sinners in the lake of fire, God is in control, and God is responsible. God is no less culpable either way.

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]