Do you think Jesus' unity prayer includes Babylon (by "Babylon" I mean it in the sense described in the quotes below). BTW, I am not implying you do. I'm just asking because I don't know what you believe about the Remnant Church and the Babylonian Churches.

[quote] Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. {GC 382.3}

And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel: "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel--the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown." Ezekiel 16:14, 15. {GC 382.3}

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with "the kings of the earth"--the state churches, by their relation to secular governments; and other denominations, by seeking the favor of the world. And the term "Babylon"--confusion--may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. {GC 383.1}[/quote}
I believe there are sincere Christians in the Babylonian Churches, and that they will leave them and join the Remnant Church (i.e. SDA Church) during the MOB crisis. They will respond to the call, "Come out of her, My people." Is this how you see it playing out?

Mike, Who knows wither Ellen was exclusively referring to the SDA church or to the whole Church? It would require more context to find out. But if she was referring to the SDA church exclusively, which might and might not have been true in her lifetime, the answer would today be one of including all Christians as part of the Church.

If I may give responce to your questions for Teresa, Mike, Id point out that Jesus took pains to include the outcasts and sinners of the time He walked on earth. What would it take for Him to change character?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Also, yes, Jesus was attracted to those who were attracted to Him. "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you." (James 4:8) But He never sought out the company of those who were willfully refusing to live in harmony with the will of God. "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Cor 5:11)

On a different note, I don't see where you addressed Ellen White's insights regarding who and what makes up Babylon. See quotes above. Do you agree with her?

Do you think Jesus' unity prayer includes Babylon (by "Babylon" I mean it in the sense described in the quotes below). BTW, I am not implying you do. I'm just asking because I don't know what you believe about the Remnant Church and the Babylonian Churches.


I believe there are sincere Christians in the Babylonian Churches, and that they will leave them and join the Remnant Church (i.e. SDA Church) during the MOB crisis. They will respond to the call, "Come out of her, My people." Is this how you see it playing out?

I ask because it sticks out like a sore eye from the others. Jesus sought out the corrupt state workers, he sought out the brothel worker, he included a terrorist among the 12. Whom he could not reach and therefore did not seek out was the selfsufficient ones. Those whom regarded themselves to be enough assurance of their own salvation. Is that not the very topic of my last posting?

Thomas, it seems to me Jesus embraced those who embraced Him. Yes, some of them were grievous sinners, but while in His presence they did not practice their sins. IOW, He didn't hang out with them while they were practicing their sins. They hung out with Him on His terms.

Also, I think it is pretty clear that "the church" quotes posted above are referring to the SDA church exclusively. I don't think she had in mind other churches. I suppose this sounds like another eye sore, but I think it is clear she believed the "remnant" (Rev 12:17) applied to the SDA church in the same way Jesus believed "salvation is of the Jews". (John 4:22)

Although the shadow of a great sorrow fell upon them, a spirit of rivalry found a place in their hearts. They disputed among themselves which should be accounted greatest in the kingdom. This strife they thought to conceal from Jesus, and they did not, as usual, press close to His side, but loitered behind, so that He was in advance of them as they entered Capernaum. Jesus read their thoughts, and He longed to counsel and instruct them. But for this He awaited a quiet hour, when their hearts should be open to receive His words. {DA 432.2}

Good quote. Judas most likely practiced his sins while out of ear shoot or out of sight. Even the caviling church leaders plotted against Jesus while out of sight. While in His presence, though, their hearts often burned within them.

John
7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
7:46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

Now when the Pharisee which had bidden Him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This Man, if He were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth Him; for she is a sinner." {ST, May 9, 1900 par. 5}... Reading Simon's thoughts, Christ answered them before he had spoken, thus showing that He was a prophet of prophets. "Simon," He said, "I have somewhat to say unto thee. . . . There was a certain creditor which had two debtors; the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And He said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged." {ST, May 9, 1900 par. 8}


This had led to questioning as to who should fill the highest offices. On Peter's return from the sea, the disciples told him of the Saviour's question, and at last one ventured to ask Jesus, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" {DA 435.1}

According to their custom, His disciples sat close about Him, and "there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judea, and Jerusalem." These had come as spies, seeking an accusation against Jesus. Outside of these officials thronged the promiscuous multitude, the eager, the reverent, the curious, and the unbelieving. ...{DA 267.5}...
They marked the interest with which all were watching the scene, and they felt a terrible fear of losing their own influence over the people. {DA 268.5}
These dignitaries did not exchange words together, but looking into one another's faces they read the same thought in each, that something must be done to arrest the tide of feeling. Jesus had declared that the sins of the paralytic were forgiven. The Pharisees caught at these words as blasphemy, and conceived that they could present this as a sin worthy of death. They said in their hearts, "He blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but One, even God?" Mark 2:7, R. V. {DA 269.1}
Fixing His glance upon them, beneath which they cowered, and drew back, Jesus said, "Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins," He said, turning to the paralytic, "Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." {DA 269.2}
its going to be extremely difficult to find where people were not practicing their sins in Jesus presence.

actually it is extremely difficult to find a person past, living, or future, who has not/is not/will not practice sins in the presence of God.

the building of war implements with the resulting march on the new jerusalem will be "practiced" in the presence of God.