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Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116633
07/25/09 01:40 AM
07/25/09 01:40 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
[3) U.S. copyright law--and I suppose this was the biggest deal of these three, as the NIV committee definitely wanted some revenue from their product--apparently requires that a work be at least a certain percent original in order to be eligible for a copyright. The NIV happens to be one of the most strictly-copyrighted modern translations. (I wish I could remember where I came across this detail.)
when the world english bible was in "creation", being revised from the asv, there was a notice that for it to be considered a legitimate unique work and not a copy of another translation, no 10(?) sequential verses could be the same as any other version. they had a notice to that effect on their site asking if anyone should notice that it was the same as another translation to please advise them.

the web is available for anyone to use without having to ask permission.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116635
07/25/09 02:29 AM
07/25/09 02:29 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding #116623, I don't think they're trying to be different than the KJV entered into the question, as there is no need to do so. I know you know other languages besides English. I suppose you've translated things before. Anytime you do this, your individuality shows through. There's many different ways of translating things, especially Greek. (Hebrew too). When it comes to Romans and Hebrews, there's so many ways to translate things, it's not funny.

In general, I think the KJV did an excellent job. I also have more faith in the Textus Receptus than the so-called other "more dependable manuscripts," so we're on the same page on this.

Regarding #116624, I didn't find your arguments convincing, even though I agree with you. Perhaps a more convincing argument could be made by considering few texts, but in more detail.

I'm especially not convinced, on the basis of your arguments, that the NIV had an agenda. I'm not saying they didn't, just that I didn't find your particular arguments convincing.

The biggest pet peeve I have against the NIV is what I mentioned before, which is that it seems more like a paraphrase than a translation, but it presents itself as a translation. I like the RSV and NASB better as translations. However, the NIV, like all paraphrases, can really do a nice job on certain individual verses in a way that's it's difficult for a translation to do. But this is a hit and miss thing.

Regarding #116625, thanks! I'm glad you appreciated the input.

The best thing is really to look at the original languages. Of course, not everybody knows Greek and Hebrew, but with interlinear texts and lexicons, you don't really need to. They do the heavy lifting for you. That would be my first choice.

As a second choice, I like the KJV a lot, if I'm going to look at just one version. But I really like to look at as many different versions as I can, and I like looking at other languages as well. You can get lots of interesting insights that way.

For example, something interesting I just discovered was that in 1 Cor. 13, the love chapter, love is always described as acting. That is, in English (and every other language I that I know) describes love as being something, whereas the Greek describes love as doing something. For example, the KJV says that "Love is puffed up" whereas the Greek says "Love does not inflate."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116672
07/26/09 02:43 AM
07/26/09 02:43 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
In the next few posts, I will present what I feel to be the single most important problem with the NIV. It has already caused a change in the theology of many, and its influence has touched our own Adventist church as well.

This issue, in fact, is subtle, and appealing to us as sinners looking for an easy shortcut to relief from our burdens of guilt. In Paul's words, "I had not known sin, but by the law" (Romans 7:7). Therefore, the law, as it has always been, is the special object of Satan's attacks.

It is this law which has been greatly undermined in the NIV. Specifically, three major errors seem to surface in the NIV translation:

1) The law is not so important nor enduring;
2) The law can be changed from time to time; and
3) At the cross, it was completely abolished.

The NIV would have us believe that we are saved by grace, and that it is impossible for mankind, in our sinful state, to keep the law. According to the NIV, Christ's perfect life is our substitute, and we are not called to such perfection. Rather, we are under His grace, and no longer obligated to follow the law.

I will separate this into more than one post. The first one will give a more general sense of how the NIV translators treat the law in various places. It is important to see this, as it will demonstrate the lengths to which they would go to obscure the more critical texts which I will present in the second post. I may still post additional material on this same topic later as I have opportunity, for these next two posts will not exhaust this topic by any means.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Would you by this have us believe we are not saved by grace?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: vastergotland] #116677
07/26/09 03:03 AM
07/26/09 03:03 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Would you by this have us believe we are not saved by grace?
No, of course not. We are saved by grace, but not by grace only. The popular saying "saved by grace alone" is simply false, and unbiblical.

The NIV, however, implies that it is only by grace that we are saved, and that our escape from sin cannot take place in this world.

For me, if God has grace toward me, He will help me break the bonds of sin, and not leave me to be a captive. Nor should He wait to do this for me only in the future life, but here and now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116679
07/26/09 03:13 AM
07/26/09 03:13 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
<table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center" valign="top">
<tr><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause. (Exodus 23:6, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">“Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. (Exodus 23:6, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">What? It's ok to file lawsuits if you are poor? Notice also the switch from "judgment" to "justice."</td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exodus 27:21, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">In the Tent of Meeting, outside the curtain that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to keep the lamps burning before the Lord from evening till morning. This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come. (Exodus 27:21, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">Here the term "statute" becomes "ordinance." Additionally, "for ever" is downgraded to "lasting." There is a reason for this, for according to the NIV, even the law of 10 Commandments is considered abolished at the cross, which we will see later, so how could such a trivial "ordinance" be "for ever" (even in a spiritual sense)?</td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7:12, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. (Hebrews 7:12, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">The NIV changes the meaning here so that it can better fit the Roman Catholic priestly order. The subtle change in this text now allows for a change of law every time there is a change in the priesthood. The original text referred to one and only one change in priesthood, that of Christ.</td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. (Hebrews 7:16, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. (Hebrews 7:16, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" valign="top">The changes here in the NIV make the original meaning obscure. The two verses seem hardly similar. Indeed, less than a third of the words are the same as the KJV, even though the NIV added fifty percent more words.</td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. (Hebrews 7:18, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrews 7:18, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">Was the law useless? Pay special attention to the NIV use of "regulation" in place of "commandment" here. In other words, in the NIV, "regulation" is a rather important word.</td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Galatians 3:12, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” [fn5] Footnote: Lev. 18:5 (Galatians 3:12, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">I understand the KJV rendition differently from the NIV rendering here. </td></tr>
<tr><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39, KJV)</td><td bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39, NIV)</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#DDDDFF" valign="top">The NIV here makes it appear that the law of Moses could justify some things, whereas the KJV rendition would have us believe that the law justifies nothing. The difference is a comma!</td></tr>

</table>
Blessings,
<p>
Green Cochoa.
The first passage, what is the significant difference here?
The second passage, Aarons sons no longer perform this duty. Why is recognizing this a problem?
The third passage, the original text? Surely you recognize that the KJV is not original in this context in any possible sense of the word?
The fourth passage, again, original sense? And I dont find the message change? Maybe it is so subtle it takes a linguistics degree to notice?
The fifth passage, the uselessness is in the KJV aswell? Maybe this is one of your examples of Hebrews being dead wrong?
The sixth passage, really? how?
The seventh passage, having spent so much effort trying to point out a uselessness of the law in the NIV, your objection here shows that this isn't a clear case after all.

(Im sure Daryl turns on html in a while..)


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116681
07/26/09 03:15 AM
07/26/09 03:15 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Would you by this have us believe we are not saved by grace?
No, of course not. We are saved by grace, but not by grace only. The popular saying "saved by grace alone" is simply false, and unbiblical.

The NIV, however, implies that it is only by grace that we are saved, and that our escape from sin cannot take place in this world.

For me, if God has grace toward me, He will help me break the bonds of sin, and not leave me to be a captive. Nor should He wait to do this for me only in the future life, but here and now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
True, not by grace alone, by grace through faith, more precisely. Which also happens to fit like hand in glove with what John writes as we are studying this quarter..


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: vastergotland] #116683
07/26/09 03:27 AM
07/26/09 03:27 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
GC:For me, if God has grace toward me, He will help me break the bonds of sin, and not leave me to be a captive.


This seems like an odd way to put things, to me. It seems to me that God breaks the bonds of sin. He doesn't do it against our will, but, nevertheless, this is His job to do. For example:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)


How are saved? "If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour." Our part is not to resist the love of God which leads us to repentance. If we don't resist, the following follow:

1.The Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
2.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.
3.The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.
4.The law of God is written in the mind and heart.

It seems to me that these are all things God does. We "help" God by not interposing a perverse will and thus frustrating His grace:

Quote:
God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116773
07/28/09 10:10 PM
07/28/09 10:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Whenever the NIV reflects the truth in a way easier to understand than the KJV would it be okay to quote it instead?

Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Mountain Man] #116783
07/28/09 11:31 PM
07/28/09 11:31 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Whenever the NIV reflects the truth in a way easier to understand than the KJV would it be okay to quote it instead?

Not necessarily. There are several things to take into consideration here:

1) Is the "easier to understand" truth still the untarnished, unaltered truth?
2) Would you be giving people a false sense of security in using the NIV, as if it were a safe Bible version to use at anytime?
3) Does your target audience accept it, or would they stumble at it?
4) Will the alternate wording confuse those who are trying to memorize it from a different version?

Ellen White, in her preaching, always used the KJV. She recognized that it was more acceptable in churches, and that people would all be reading from the same version.

(I find it especially annoying when the person up front asks everyone to read a verse together, and everyone is reading from a different version...it's confusing.)

Ellen White had the discernment to know when a verse in the Bible spoke truth, and when it did not. She carefully instructed her editors not to use other versions of the Bible for a text except she had a chance to approve it. She did use other versions, but not always. There were times when she would strictly adhere to the KJV. Why do you suppose she would do this if the RV were deemed easier?

I think our church has learned the wrong lesson from Mrs. White's use of other versions--we teach now that all versions are the Word of God and that it does not matter which version one uses. The reality is that it did matter to Mrs. White. She was very careful in choosing the Bible version, and did not always accept another rendering of the text. The majority of her texts were the traditional KJV, and today, our church quotes the NIV the majority of the time, which did not even exist in Mrs. White's day, so we have no way of knowing how well she would have accepted it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Quality of the NIV Bible Translation as Compared to the KJV [Re: Green Cochoa] #116793
07/29/09 02:02 AM
07/29/09 02:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: GC
1) Is the "easier to understand" truth still the untarnished, unaltered truth?
2) Would you be giving people a false sense of security in using the NIV, as if it were a safe Bible version to use at anytime?
3) Does your target audience accept it, or would they stumble at it?
4) Will the alternate wording confuse those who are trying to memorize it from a different version?

1. My question assumed, yes.
2. Possibly. But there are times when we have to explain why even the KJV interpreted a text incorrectly.
3. Good point. In most cases, however, more people are more open to the NIV.
4. Not if they are diligent with their method of memorization. I know this from experience.

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