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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116380
07/20/09 12:53 PM
07/20/09 12:53 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I have heard one definition that makes sence to me. It makes a IJ in three stages. First stage that may be ongoing, Gods judgments being investigated by the heavens. Second stage to start after sin has been put on hold, Gods judgments being investigated by the redemed. Third stage to start at the time of the final termination of sin, Gods judgments being investigated by his enemies which concludes by everyone declaring His justness.
Willfull blindness and resisted and refused truth all come from learning of the large view of the truth and rejecting it.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: vastergotland]
#116421
07/21/09 02:21 AM
07/21/09 02:21 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thomas, what do you find objectionable about the SDA view of the IJ of the living? Why are you unwilling to embrace it wholeheartedly?
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116429
07/21/09 08:31 AM
07/21/09 08:31 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Tell me what I am missing.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116434
07/21/09 08:53 AM
07/21/09 08:53 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Posts: 4,583
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Thanks to this thread, I've come to a better understanding of the judgment of the living. I'm sure there's more for me to learn, but it's important to share what you know as you learn, and so after learning what I did here, I re-wrote an article I have on my website that deals partly with this. Here's part of the revised section which is in the introduction: What difference did it make to the church when Christ entered the Most Holy Place on October 22, 1844? The Investigative Judgment began, right? But let me ask you, what difference did that make to you and me. The judgment of the dead began? Right, but again, what difference did that make to you and me? As far as you and I go, if the only thing that happened in 1844 was that the judgment of the dead began, we'd have to say that nothing significant changed then that affects us today. But intuitively we know that's not the case. So what did happen and how does that affect us now?
The answer is in Revelation 10:11 - 11:2. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot . . .
In 1844, after the disappointment, the church was given a second commission. We were told to rise from our disappointment and prophesy again. And we were given the measuring message - the hour of His judgment is come. The message of judgment, of measuring, was first given in power in the last half of 1840, but here, after 1844, we're told to 'prophecy again', to repeat it. Ellen White and scripture make a number of interesting statements about this measuring, judgment time that show that:
1) God is measuring us now and has been measuring the saints since 1844. 2) God is sealing the church now. 3) The investigative judgment is the means of the preparation for the final outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the final sealing. 4) Now is when our sins must be pardoned, and 'go beforehand to judgment' not in the judgment of the living. It will be too late then.
In I Timothy 5:24 it says: Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after.
Commenting on this Ellen White says: I warn all who profess the name of Christ to closely examine themselves and make full and thorough confession of all their wrongs, that they may go beforehand to judgment, and that the recording angel may write pardon opposite their names. 1T 264.
In 1888 Ellen White made this comment on the judgment/measuring time and how it relates to us now: The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. . . . {7BC 972.1} Here is the work going on, measuring the temple and its worshipers to see who will stand in the last day. Those who stand fast shall have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. When we are doing our work remember there is One that is watching the spirit in which we are doing it. Shall we not bring the Saviour into our everyday lives, into our secular work and domestic duties? Then in the name of God we want to leave behind everything that is not necessary, all gossiping or unprofitable visiting, and present ourselves as servants of the living God (MS 4, 1888). {7BC 972.2}
So, God is measuring or judging us now. If that's so, then are two aspects to the judgment of the living - the measuring process now, and the time when our case is finally decided. The scripture and Ellen White agree that by far the most important phase for you and me is the present one. For us, now is the day of salvation; now is when we can respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit and by confession and humility send our sins beforehand to judgment. If we respond today, then when our names come up in final review of the living or the dead, we'll have nothing to fear.
This idea, that the judgment of the living is two phased, is new to Adventism. But it's not new to scripture or Ellen White. Let's look now at the meaning of the measuring message that was given to the church after the disappointment in 1844. In Revelation 11:1 and 2 it says. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot . . .
This passage is giving the reapplication of the first angel - that the judgment hour has come. Ellen White says: The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. {7BC 972.1} So, if we want to understand the meaning of the investigative judgment, the judgment hour message, we need to understand the measuring commission.
There is a fascinating vision where Ellen White confirms the importance of the measuring process. Interestingly she links the measuring process to receiving the Holy Spirit. The vision implies that as character is measured it is sanctified, and true sanctification brings with it the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Here's what she was shown: During the night of the first Sabbath of the Newcastle meeting, I seemed to be in meeting, presenting the necessity and importance of our receiving the Spirit. This was the burden of my labor--the opening of our hearts to the Holy Spirit. . . . In my dream a sentinel stood at the door of an important building, and asked every one who came for entrance, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost?" A measuring-line was in his hand, and only very, very few were admitted into the building. "Your size as a human being is nothing," he said. "But if you have reached the full stature of a man in Christ Jesus, according to the knowledge you have had, you will receive an appointment to sit with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb; and through the eternal ages, you will never cease to learn of the blessings granted in the banquet prepared for you. {1SM 109.2} "You may be tall and well-proportioned in self, but you cannot enter here. None can enter who are grown-up children, carrying with them the disposition, the habits, and the characteristics which pertain to children. If you have nurtured suspicions, criticism, temper, self-dignity, you cannot be admitted; for you would spoil the feast. All who go in through this door have on the wedding garment, woven in the loom of heaven. . . . As these words were spoken, I saw that some turned sadly away and mingled with the scoffers. Others, with tears, all broken in heart, made confession to those whom they had bruised and wounded. They did not think of maintaining their own dignity, but asked at every step, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). The answer was, "Repent, and be converted, that your sins may go beforehand to judgment, and be blotted out." … As I presented these principles to the people in the Sabbath meeting, all seemed to feel that the Lord had spoken through the feeble instrument.--The Review and Herald, April 11, 1899. {1SM 111.2}
The scriptures confirm that there is an 'important' building that all of us need admittance to. The building is the Most Holy place of the sanctuary where Christ ministers for us. Here is where we find shelter, under the wings of the God's holy angels. But before we can enter this important building a process takes place where the worshipers are measured. And to give us a clearer picture of what is involved we have not only the vision of Sister White but also the parallel passages of Revelation 11 and Ezekiel 40 to 48. Revelation 11 gives Adventists their current commission, and Ezekiel 40 to 48 fills in more of the details. John in vision is told to rise and measure the temple and worshippers. What John sees is the measuring of the Investigative Judgment. Therefore to understand the Investigative Judgment more fully one of the most fruitful places to look is in Ezekiel's temple where the temple is measured and described in detail. In the rest of this paper we'll be looking at lessons from measuring that temple. For the rest of the article, click here: http://ezekielsite.com/ezek2.htm
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: vastergotland]
#116475
07/22/09 03:08 AM
07/22/09 03:08 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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M: Thomas, what do you find objectionable about the SDA view of the IJ of the living? Why are you unwilling to embrace it wholeheartedly?
V: Tell me what I am missing. That the IJ has not yet progressed to include the living. According to the SDA view: Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116498
07/22/09 08:03 AM
07/22/09 08:03 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I am still not sure what you mean here Mike.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: vastergotland]
#116499
07/22/09 08:53 AM
07/22/09 08:53 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Zechariah 2 confirms the close relationship between the measuring of God's people, the judgment hour message, the warning to flee spiritual Babylon and the latter rain:
I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what [is] the breadth thereof, and what [is] the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited [as] towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Ho, ho, [come forth], and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest [with] the daughter of Babylon. For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#116603
07/24/09 09:32 AM
07/24/09 09:32 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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What do you all think? In my second to last post I summarized what I've been saying here with this statement: So, God is measuring or judging us now. If that's so, then are two aspects to the judgment of the living - the measuring process now, and the time when our case is finally decided. The scripture and Ellen White agree that by far the most important phase for you and me is the present one. For us, now is the day of salvation; now is when we can respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit and by confession and humility send our sins beforehand to judgment. If we respond today, then when our names come up in final review of the living or the dead, we'll have nothing to fear.
This idea, that the judgment of the living is two phased, is new to Adventism. But it's not new to scripture or Ellen White. Let's look now at the meaning of the measuring message that was given to the church after the disappointment in 1844. . . . .
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#116604
07/24/09 09:50 AM
07/24/09 09:50 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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In other words the investigative judgment of the living follows the same pattern as the investigative judgment of the dead: For the dead, the cases of the dead are reviewed, and then sentence is passed - two phases. For the judgment of the living, the cases of the living are reviewed now, during the measuring time. Then sentence is passed. Is the above explanation of scripture consistant with Ellen White's statments regarding the fact that no-one knows when the judgment of the living begins. What does she mean? Is she refering to a further probationary or review period for the living or is she refering to the time when God passes sentence and probation is closed. Isn't it the latter? Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1} I'm afraid that many Adventists have a false sence of security because they tend to think this quote means they'll be measured and judged at a future time. The import of the quote however is that now, before sentence is finally passed on your case and mine, we need to co-operate with God in the measuring, judgment process. When sentence is passed, it will be too late.
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Re: Judgment of the Living - ongoing since mid-1800's
[Re: Charity]
#116609
07/24/09 01:32 PM
07/24/09 01:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Commenting on your last post, Mark. I see what's happening a bit differently than you do, it looks to me. I'm not talking about the events themselves, but the meaning of the events, or what's actually happening. I'll try to explain. It appears to me, from your language, that you see the judgment as something God does to people, whereas I see it more as something people do to themselves. For example: 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12) I think the principle being articulated here is that when one rejects Christ, one condemns oneself, because Christ alone is the life, the light, and the truth. So as the judgment takes place, it's not so much that sentence is passed in the sense of a judicial fiat, as would happen in our courts, but an evaluation is made. It's not that God says, "You had your chance. Now it's too late." as if the person would change his mind, if God would just let him, but God tells the ones evaluating the evidence (holy angels now, later the righteous, finally the wicked) "Look. Here's the evidence. This is why this person will be brought up in the first resurrection, (or this is why this person will be brought up in the second.)" Regarding the false sense of security, I agree that that's easy to have. But the issue is not so much one of time, but of condition. That is, if the condition of our heart is such that we are not open to the truth which the Lord reveals, that's a dangerous condition, because we can so harden our hearts that we reach the point to where we can no longer be healed. If we set ourselves against God strong enough, we become like the clay baked in the sun; our hearts become hardened, like Pharaoh's.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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