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Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: vastergotland] #116803
07/29/09 03:32 AM
07/29/09 03:32 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
As this seems to be where the most recent "Jesus' nature" topic landed, I will here post this quote I just found which might help to settle the issue.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

III. Took Sinless Human Nature

Christ came to the earth, taking humanity, and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement.--The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898. {7ABC 446.3}
[S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7A (1970)]


(All emphases original)


Just curious, how exactly will the above help settle the controvercy?
well, im of the opinion that it wont. each side has their reasons for believing what they do.....but what would i know? smile

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 07/29/09 04:18 AM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post

Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Mountain Man] #117809
08/20/09 12:34 AM
08/20/09 12:34 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
To Everyone:

Do you think having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is the same thing as sinning? Or, do you think people sin if and when they indulge them?


Self seeking, selfish, ia our defect character. it is "the sin in us", a character we inherit from Adam through multiplication. We were formed in sin while still in our mother womb, born in sin and live in sin, since we are selfish.

Christ was born from God, he didn't have this "defect character", he was not "selfish", he hasn't this "sin" in him.

In His love

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: James Saptenno] #117825
08/20/09 01:08 PM
08/20/09 01:08 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
James, we don't inherit characters, but flesh. Our character is developed. The flesh has tendencies to sin, but if they are not acted on, the character is not impacted. As the children partake of flesh and blood, Jesus Christ took part of the same. Tempted in all points as we are, He was without sin, because He never acceded to the temptations of the flesh, thus, although he as flesh of our flesh, of the seed of David, He developed a perfect character.

So all of these assertions are true:

Quote:
Christ was born from God, he didn't have this "defect character", he was not "selfish", he hasn't this "sin" in him.


but none of these imply that Christ did not take flesh such as we have.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: James Saptenno] #117829
08/20/09 01:42 PM
08/20/09 01:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, do you agree that having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as cultivating sinful character traits? Do you agree that overcoming our cultivated character defects means subjecting them to a sanctified will and mind so that we do not act them out? Also, do you agree that character traits are the result of repetitious choices and actions, that we do not inherit them, and that we are not born with them? Finally, do you agree that it is character that ultimately decides our destiny in judgment, and that any and all unconquered cultivated sinful character trait will bar the gates of heaven against us?

Here's how Ellen White saw it:

Quote:
You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. (3T 84)

[Our] natural inclinations and appetites . . . were divinely appointed, and when given to man, were pure and holy. It was God’s design that reason should rule the appetites, and that they should minister to our happiness. And when they are regulated and controlled by a sanctified reason, they are holiness unto the Lord. (14 MR 294, 295)

It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (ST 4-30-1894) Character does not come by chance. It is not determined by one out-burst of temper, one step in the wrong direction. It is the repetition of the act that causes it to become habit, and molds the character either for good or for evil. (CG 164) A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. (FLB 44)

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}

If you have become estranged and have failed to be Bible Christians, be converted; for the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. {AH 16.2}

There is really no place in heaven for these dispositions. A man with such a character will only make heaven miserable, because he himself is miserable. “Except ye be born again,” said Christ, “ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” To enter heaven, a man must have Christ formed within, the hope of glory, and take heaven with him. The Lord Jesus alone can fashion and change the character. For want of patience, kindness, forbearance, unselfishness, and love, the revealings of the traits flash forth involuntarily when off guard, and unchristian words, unchristlikeness of character burst forth sometimes to the ruin of the soul. (FE 279)

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118067
08/24/09 02:36 AM
08/24/09 02:36 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Tom
James, we don't inherit characters, but flesh. Our character is developed. The flesh has tendencies to sin, but if they are not acted on, the character is not impacted. As the children partake of flesh and blood, Jesus Christ took part of the same. Tempted in all points as we are, He was without sin, because He never acceded to the temptations of the flesh, thus, although he as flesh of our flesh, of the seed of David, He developed a perfect character.

So all of these assertions are true:

Quote:
Christ was born from God, he didn't have this "defect character", he was not "selfish", he hasn't this "sin" in him.


but none of these imply that Christ did not take flesh such as we have.


So, Jesus has his own holy mind, a loving heart but resides in a sinful flesh? He was tempted at all points where a man could be tempted, and overcame it, he never sinned.

We had a carnal mind, a stony heart that resides in a sinful flesh? We are not matching Christ at all.

Let's say, when we reborn, we were given a new mind "the mind" of Christ, a new heart that is willing to learn to love our neighbor but still the same old sinful flesh. We still could not match Jesus in his righteousness and holliness and love.

But growing in His grace, living a faithful life, we might came to a level "as he is".

The question is, when this does not happen, are we condemned?

The source of sinning for the people of God came from their sinful body, not their mind or their heart, so, when Christ came and they are transformed, the source of sin dissapear forever, are they not ready and fit for heaven?


With this I would say, eventhough Christ are not tempted the same way I had been tempted, it doesn't matter, I can accept that and it would not effect my salvation, for I would be saved by the grace of God through faith, not because of my doing or what I became.

Am I right?

In His love

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: James Saptenno] #118078
08/24/09 12:53 PM
08/24/09 12:53 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Even if we never sinned, we would still not match Christ. He was agape.

To be condemned involves hardening the heart against light, resisting the Holy Spirit.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118132
08/25/09 03:46 PM
08/25/09 03:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, your understanding of "sinful flesh" doesn't make sense to me. You seem to think we are guilty of sinning and condemned to death because we have a sinful flesh nature. Ellen White didn't see it that way. She wrote:

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Sinful flesh can only tempt us to sin - it cannot commit a sin, nor can it force us to sin. Do you see what I mean?

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118150
08/25/09 06:18 PM
08/25/09 06:18 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
James, we don't inherit characters, but flesh.

Our character is the sum total of our character traits, and we are born with character traits.

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #118152
08/25/09 06:28 PM
08/25/09 06:28 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
We are born with the potential to develop character. Every human being (who is given the chance) develops character, even Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ showed it's possible to develop perfect character in sinful flesh.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118154
08/25/09 06:42 PM
08/25/09 06:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The fact that character can be developed (that is, your character traits can be confirmed or changed) doesn't mean you are born without a character.

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