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Re: The Wrath of God
#11685
09/19/05 07:07 PM
09/19/05 07:07 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thank you Daryl. This sort of post is more helpful then just quoting a text. You're approaching the problem in a logical way based on principles. IMO, that's the way we need to go. Daryl:Tom, You need to see Christ in His four primary roles: 1 - before His 1st Coming as Lord, King, Judge, and Saviour, 2- during His 1st Coming as Saviour, Lord, and King, 3 - at and during His 2nd Coming as Saviour, Lord, King, and Judge. 4 - and finally at and during His 3rd Coming as Judge, Lord, and King. His role during His first coming wasn't a role of condemnation, but solely a role of salvation or Saviour. Tom:Question:Does His role change His character? Obviously not. So perhaps a better question would be, if Christ is missing a role while here on earth, then was there some aspect of God's character which was not revealed? In other words, when the Spirit of Prophesy says quote:
All that man needs to know or can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
was this statement was in error, being imcomplete? It's really NOT all we can know, because it's missing the Judge role stuff.
Daryl:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
The above two verses are only a sample of the many verses that reveals what His role was during His 1st Coming or Advent.
For Him to condemn and destroy then, particularly during His time on earth, would be going outside of His desired role of Saviour, and even then when He does destroy, such as in the case of The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. He does it with sadness. It truly is His strange act.
Tom:I don't see Jesus as being any different in His lifetime on earth then at other times. I believe the Spirit of Prophesy was correct in stating that all that we can know about God was revealed in Christ's life and character. There was nothing left out. Our problem is that we have misunderstood His character, and thus misinterpreted what happened in the Old Testament (and what will happen in the future).
If we start with Christ's life and character while here on earth, and use that as a reference point to compare to, then we have a chance of getting it right.
quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known.(DA 22)
It's because we were confused that Christ came. Before Christ, there was a record of the Old Testament. It doesn't make sense to go back to that which was misunderstood in the first place to try to understand that which was given to correct the misunderstandings! Even holy angels did not understand the truth until the cross.
quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
If even holy angels were confused until the cross, how much more will we be confused if we disregard it. Every truth, to be properly understood, must be studied in the light of Calvary.
I believe we can perfectly understood God's dealings with the wicked by studying Christ's life and character, especially at Calvary. In fact, just studying Calvary would provide the answer.
In Christ, we have all the answer right in front of us.
I agree with the strange work comment and God's sadness. I'm glad you see this as something God does with a heavy heart. I agree with you on this.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11686
09/19/05 07:38 PM
09/19/05 07:38 PM
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What does God say about Himself? quote:
Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
I wonder what God means by "that will by no means clear the guilty"?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11687
09/19/05 09:22 PM
09/19/05 09:22 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Well it wasn't something which wasn't revealed in the life of Christ! (pardon the double negative; how about, This was revealed in the life of Christ!) quote:
The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty."
This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. (Reflecting Christ 214)
So if we want to answer that question, we have but to look at the life and character of Christ. I have a thought as to what it means, but pardon me while I defer to ask your opinion. Where in Christ's life to you seem Him answering your question?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11688
09/19/05 09:28 PM
09/19/05 09:28 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Tom
Remember the many parables of Jesus, there are many who deal with refusal or neglect as responces to His preaching on the comming of His kingdom.
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11689
09/19/05 10:33 PM
09/19/05 10:33 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
I wonder what God means by "that will by no means clear the guilty"?
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
Those who blaspheme against the holy spirit are rejecting the spirit of, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. They are calling the holy spirit unrighteous.
Therefore by not partaking of God’s holy spirit of mercy, forgiveness and grace they remain in their own “righteousness” which is not forgiving, but exacting and accusing and holding guilty. Thus God cannot clear them by any means.
The great controversy is between good and evil;
between the justifier and the accuser;
between the gracious and the condemning;
between Christ and Satan;
between life and death;
between faith and fear;
between love and hate.
God offers us his holy spirit in salvation.
Which spirit are we of?
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11690
09/20/05 01:27 AM
09/20/05 01:27 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Therefore by not partaking of God’s holy spirit of mercy, forgiveness and grace they remain in their own “righteousness” which is not forgiving, but exacting and accusing and holding guilty.
Amen!
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11691
09/20/05 02:03 AM
09/20/05 02:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The incidents that immediately came to my mind in Christ's life were the woman caught in adultery, Judas, and Jerusalem. A couple of thoughts on the verse. First of all, the context is that Moses asked God to reveal him His character. God responded, "I will cause all my goodness to pass before thee" and then He proclaimed His character. This tells us that God's character is goodness. I note that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance. It's also God's goodness which causes the death of the wicked (DA 108). The Portuguese version says that God will be no means "innocent" the guilty, where "innocent" is a verb. That is, God will recognize the guilty as guilty, He will call a spade a spade. Regarding the question of what it means to say "God will by no means clear the guilty" Waggoner writes: quote:
This is God's name. It is the character in which He reveals Himself to man, the light in which He wishes men to regard Him. But what of the declaration that He "will by no means clear the guilty"? That is perfectly in keeping with His longsuffering, abundant goodness and His passing by the transgression of His people. It is true that God will by no means clear the guilty. He could not do that and still be a just God. But He does something which is far better. He removes the guilt, so that the one formerly guilty does not need to be cleared--he is justified and counted as though he never had sinned. (from Christ and His Righteousness; "The Lord Our Righteousness")
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Re: The Wrath of God
#11692
09/21/05 02:39 AM
09/21/05 02:39 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
God responded, "I will cause all my goodness to pass before thee" and then He proclaimed His character. This tells us that God's character is goodness. I note that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance.
Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
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