What you wrote above Tom, is that your view of the measuring process or commission John is given in Revelation 11? If so, do you think there's something significant that happened in 1844?

I was commenting more on the judgment in general than specifically having a certain text, such as Revelation 11, in mind. I think there are three phases to the judgment.

1.The investigative judgment (primarily for unfallen beings, including holy angels and beings from unfallen worlds).
2.The millennial judgment (the resurrection faithful, human beings, investigate the same evidence the unfallen beings looked at in 1)
3.The final judgment (the wicked look at the same evidence).

I don't thing the judgment is of the nature of divine fiats dictating what will happen, but of the nature of investigating the evidence. All will agree that what God has said (which is God's evaluation of the matter) is right.

Regarding 1844, I believe this is when the investigative judgment began, which I think is significant.

I enjoy the threads you start, Mark. Hope you start some more.

A couple of more ideas to throw out. As I've considered these things, it seems to me that a simple way of looking at things, and accurate as well, is that God will take to heaven those who would be happy there. So the judgment can be seen as God's saying who would be happy in heaven, and who wouldn't be. The former group is included in the first resurrection, and the latter in the second. Those who take part in the second resurrection will bear out God's judgment by their actions. It's not that God would not allow them into heaven, if the chose to repent and submit (the same conditions He offered to Lucifer) but that none of them will choose to do so, which bears out God's judgment on the matter.

GC 543 tells us that the exclusion from heaven of the those who take part of the second resurrection is voluntary on their part. God doesn't force the lost to be condemned against their will, but they voluntarily agree with God's judgment.

The first angel proclaims that the hour of His judgment is come. And men are to fear God in light of that fact. So the issue Tom in the judgment is whether men and women can live victoriously by the grace of God. Is the intercession of Christ for men in the heavenly sanctary effective in this Day of Atonement? Can Christ present us faultless before His throne, not only in theory, but in fact? Will the church finally wear the wedding garment?

So, God is measuring us by the truth as it's found in Christ. While the unfallen worlds look on, they are interested in seeing how men and women respond to the truth and the grace of God that is presented to us freely but at an infinite cost to the Deity.

i think you meant the second and third angels messages.

the very first and most important is if we dont have that one down, nothing else we believe will really matter, it seems to me.

in fact it is quite possible that once we have the true understanding of the gospel, it has changed us, and we are obeying the command to go forth that the other two "take care of themselves".

The everlasting gospel and the judgment hour message can't be separated Teresa. The Investigative Judgment is the best possible news. It's the message of Christ Our Righteousness. God's commands and His calls to repent are all His promises for deliverence from sin. But the history of the first angel will be repeated. Just as in 1840 to 1844, those who reject the first angel can't be benifitted by the second, so now, those who rejecy the measuring message of the first angel can't be benefitted by the other two.

i was referring to this.

Why do we Adventists recoil from the idea that the Investigative Judgment is being fulfilled now and that God is measuring us. One reason is that we've all met uncharitalbe types who pick flaws and 'make a man guilty for a word' and are critical and judgmental. When the Laodecian message was first given in the mid 1800's, many of the brethern misapplied it to others rather than looking critically at their own cases and that pattern has often been repeated in our sad history as a church. But the prophetic word tells us that at the end, the measuring message will be correctly applied by the church as it's intended. It says in Zecharaih that the church will be given a view of the Savior that will have the transforming affect.

Here's another inspired application of Revelation 11 by Ellen White:

In the following statment Sister White implies that the measuring process takes place before the church enters its final conflict. In other words, failure to co-operate with Christ now in the measuring process means unpreparedness for the final conflict. Isn't this the same lesson Christ taught in the parable of the ten virgins?