I think you're thinking of this in terms of time, and I don't think that's the right way of thinking about it. That is, it takes a certain amount of time to investigate cases, and there are lots of people to look at, and there hadn't been enough time to get to the living by 1911, etc. I don't think there's an issue of time involved. Heaven doesn't need more time, nor does it follow that Christ was closer to coming in 1911 than He was in, say, 1893, even though 1911 is later than 1893.

This is because in 1888 God sent a message to prepare for Christ's coming. Had that message not been resisted, Christ would have come some time in the 1890's. As far as Sabbath laws are concerned, we've never been closer to the things she prophesied in "The Great Controversy" from happening. There was a Committee vote in the Senate regarding making Sunday a National rest day that failed of passing by one vote (A. T. Jones was instrumental in the defeat of this vote, by the way). There were other things happening around 1893, as I recall, that had SDA's thinking the end was near. Because Christ was so close to coming, that's why I said I thought maybe the cases had passed to the living. Maybe. As in, it might have happened in that time frame. Not that it did. But maybe.

To my mind the fact that the cases in 1911 were not the cases of the living does not mean that earlier the IJ could have passed to the living.



I disagree; I think it's possible. I think she was trying to fight against some fanaticism, and that people were making claims she had said some things she hadn't said. But in 1889 she hadn't said that the latter rain had started to fall, by way of the 1888 message, and in 1892 she did. So things weren't necessarily the same between 1888 and 1892.



You implied it by the way you worded things. You wrote something like "Contrary to what you claim ..."



I disagree, and I've explained why. I think you're thinking of this in terms of time, and that this is not the right way of looking at it. The latter rain was falling in 1892. It wasn't falling in 1911.



I wasn't taking issue with this, but with your claim regarding the IJ not having passed to the living yet. How do you know it hasn't? I'm not saying it hasn't, but I'm asking you how you know it hasn't. You seem to have the idea that it can't have passed to the living because the MOB thing hasn't happened yet, but I don't see anything in the quotes you presented that tie the MOB to when the cases of the living start to be examined.

I don't know of any precondition to the cases of the living being examined. That is, that we can say, "The IJ has not passed to the living yet because such and such has not happened, and Sister White says before the IJ will pass to the living, such and such has to happen first."

I don't see what your questions have to do with this, so I didn't answer them. Brief answers are, 1.I don't see how this could be possible. 2.If you mean the exact moment, no. If you mean before Jesus returns, yes. 3.Can't answer without "these things" being defined. If you're talking about the things referred to in the quotes you cited, no.

I addressed the issue of “time” because you brought up “around 1888”. At any rate, I disagree that it has nothing to do with time. Timing is everything, as they say. The scroll unfolds in a timely, orderly manner. Prophecy is following a minutely mapped out timeline. Jesus often said, “My time is not yet come.” The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.


Did she ever intimate such a thing happened? That is, where does she say the IJ might have progressed to include the living but if it did it has since ceased happening? And, what about the ones that may have been numbered and sealed, whose names would have been retained in the book of life, whose destinies would have been forever fixed? Did they die? Can the righteous living die after their cases have been decided in heaven?


In judgment, when a person’s case comes up, all their sins must be forgiven and forsaken; otherwise, it’s too late to get it right. Also, it doesn’t make sense to me to suggest (not saying you are) that a person can be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test”. What if they blow it – then what? Will God have to unnumber and unseal them and then rejudge them?


How long before Jesus arrives will they know they are numbered and sealed and are going to be translated alive? Will they know it at the time probation closes? 5T 472-476 says they will be conscious when their sins are being investigated. Also, they need to know when probation closes in order to pray the prayers of the 4th and 5th angels in Rev 14:15-20.

James White, in A Word to the Little Flock, refers to them and says, "When Jesus has finished his work in the Heavenly Sanctuary and comes out upon the great white cloud, with his sharp sickle, then will be the time for the day and night cry, which is represented by the angel's crying to Jesus, to thrust in his sharp sickle, and reap. Rev. 14:14,15." “The last two angels are messages of prayer.”

In the same pamphlet, Ellen White wrote, “Then Jesus will have the sharp sickle in his hand, (Rev. 14:14) and then the saints will cry day and night to Jesus on the cloud, to thrust in his sharp sickle and reap.”

The “these things” in the number 3 refers to the things named in the previous two questions.

That Christ has not come yet has nothing to do with Prophecy. You agree with that, don't you?



Indirectly, I'd say so. At least, it seems possible. She talks about how the latter rain was falling, that Christ was disappointed that He could not come, that the loud cry of the latter rain had begun (which is a reference to Rev. 18:1), so things were *very* close to coming to an end. Given that things were so close, it seems possible to me that the IJ could have started looking at the cases of the living.



Destinies are fixed by character. Not by things written in books.



I'm not aware of any quote limiting when the IJ passes to the living. I'm aware of quotes which speak of when it *ends*, tying that to events, but not the beginning. Do you know of any?



I think you're thinking of this in terms of time again. It's not too late in the sense of time, but of condition. The whole thing has to do with character, and the evaluation of character. Not arbitrary decisions being made on the basis of time.



How could they "blow it"? God would have to be wrong in His evaluation, wouldn't He?



MM, I just had the point to make that you said the Seventh-day Adventist position is that the IJ could not have passed into the cases of the living. You're going into a bunch of other stuff.

If you'd like to make a case that it couldn't have passed into the living, I'd like to hear that. Also, if this is our position, I'd like some reference to something stating that. Is it on the official web site somewhere? It's an official statement of some sort? What's your basis for saying this is our position?

Regarding Rev. 14, it doesn't seem to me that you're understanding that Revelation is a symbolic book. It's not literal. It describes things in terms of symbols.

For example, Revelation speaks of angels who day and night say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" etc. Do you think this is literal?

When James White said these are "messages of prayer," I imagine he intended this phrase the same way I would, which is as the expression of the desire of the heart, not as literal words being spoken.

I didn't follow the last point. I'm not really interested, unless you can tie it to the question at hand, which is that the IJ could not have passed to the living yet.

Yes. However, that isn’t the point I’m making. What I’m saying is the prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled will play out in a particular sequence according to God’s timing. I was responding to your comment that “time” has nothing to do with it.


Possible, yes, but without an inspired quote saying so we shouldn’t assume it is so.


Is there a difference between character and the things written in the books in heaven? Are they not one and the same thing! “As the features of the countenance are reproduced with unerring accuracy on the polished plate of the artist, so the character is faithfully delineated in the books above.” {GC 487.1} At any rate, you didn’t address my questions. The following passages make it clear that once a person’s case is examined during the IJ their destiny is forever fixed:


“When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death.” I believe the destiny of each person is decided the moment Jesus finishes examining their case, that is, I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided. This insight leads me to conclude that during the IJL, when a person’s case comes up, their destiny is fixed forever while they are still alive.


Jesus will not examine the cases of the living before they are ready, before they are without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing. It must be evident that they are holy and without blemish or that it is never going to happen. He cannot examine their cases before their eternal destiny is clear. Otherwise, it would be premature. That’s why He waits until after a person is dead to examine their case and decide their eternal destiny.


True. But there comes a “time” when their cases must be examined and their eternal destiny decided. That time comes when it is evident that they have made their final decision to be saved or not to be saved. Should they die in this state (i.e. made their final decision), their eternal destiny will reflect it when Jesus examines their case. Should they achieve this state when the IJ progresses to include the cases of the living, their eternal destiny will reflect it when Jesus examines their case. They will be numbered and sealed among the 144,000. At this point, the moment their case has been decided, they will not do anything that would require Jesus to change it. Nor will they taste death. They will be translated alive when Jesus arrives.


My point precisely.


Okay. But I’m still interested in your answer to the questions above.


I’m basing it on Ellen White’s 1911 statement that “Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review.” I don’t think anything has happened since 1911 to suggest this isn’t true any more, that is, that it has progressed to the include the cases of the living. Plus, there is no evidence she ever said the IJ progressed to include the cases of the living but has since ceased.


The reason I bring up the “prayer messages” of Rev 14:15-20 is because it speaks to the question of whether or not the judged, numbered, and sealed saints will know that they have been numbered and sealed, and that they will not die, that instead they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives. Before they can pray for Jesus thrust in His sickle they must first know that the time has arrived for Him to do so. IOW, they would need to know that probation has closed, which means they would also know that the IJ is finished. They would also know everything named above (i.e. that they have been numbered and sealed, and that they will not die, that instead they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives).

You asked, "For example, Revelation speaks of angels who day and night say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" etc. Do you think this is literal?" Possibly. I don't see why it would be impossible.

Do you agree that both Ellen and James White believed the angels symbolized the 144,000 praying to Jesus to return and take them home and to destroy the unsaved? I agree that the words recorded in Rev 14 may not be the exact words they use.


Namely, can they be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test”?

What do you mean "according to God's timing?" God timing was that Christ would have come shortly after 1844. This was made clear by EGW's statement that "Christ could have come 'ere this" in the 1850's.

God's timing was that Christ would have come in the 1888 era. Ellen White makes this clear in a number of statements, including one where we're told that Christ was disappointed that He could not come.

I'm not understanding your comment about God's timing. If it were up to God's timing, Christ would have come years ago. It's not God's fault that Christ hasn't come yet.



If you say it's possible, then you're in agreement with me. There's nothing I wrote that was in any way assuming this was so, right? I'd never even had the thought until I responded to some post of yours on this thread. I certainly wasn't assuming this. I simply through this out as a possibility.



No, they're not the same thing. One is reality and the other is a picture of reality. It's like asking if there's a difference between a beautiful place and a picture of the place. You like the Sierra Nevada mountains. Is there a difference between Yosemite Valley and a picture of it?



Their destiny is not fixed by any actions taking place in the IJ. Their destiny is fixed by their character, and the actions of the IJ recognize this reality.



It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case. In fact, I don't see how this could not be the case. What Jesus does is simply an evaluation. He doesn't fix their destiny. They do. He recognizes the decision they've made.



Waits for what?



I don't there's any question about this, is there?



So if they're not ready, He'll wait? That is, if some living person is not ready, Jesus doesn't examine their case? Does He pass over it and come back to it later? Or He doesn't examine the cases of any of the living? I don't know what you're trying to say here.



I don't know what your point is here. Are you disagreeing with something I said? Or just making a general point? If the latter, for what purpose?



Ok. It looks like you're agreeing with what I said. If so, I agree with you.



I thought that was my point. You asked the question, "What if they blow it?" Not me.




The righteous will know that they will be translated at some point before Jesus returns. I don't believe we're told the precise moment this occurs.



Ok, earlier in this post was the following exchange:



Given this admission, I think we're in agreement. I believe it was possible that the cases could have passed to the living in the 1888 era, as you agreed to. I agree with you that we shouldn't assume this was the case. I have no way of knowing, and certainly wouldn't suggest that this actually happened in any terms of certainty. I just said I thought it might be possible.

Regarding the 1911 statement, and that nothing has changed since then to suggest that the IJ has passed to the cases of the living, if you're talking about in terms of common sense or intuition, I completely agree. That is, if someone asked me my opinion about whether the cases have passed to the living, I would say I don't think so. But to assert that this is impossible, that it couldn't have happened, I don't know that it's possible to assert that.



I don't think this is necessarily the case. After all, John himself, who wrote Revelation, prayed, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."



Why? I think we can pray the prayer, and should pray the prayer, that the harvest be collected. This is a prayer of the heart, and expression of the desire that the Lord return. That's how I understand it.



Because it would be robotic. God's character is not such that He would be honored by such robotic praise.



I don't think the 144,000 will be praying that the unsaved be destroyed. That's not the Spirit of Christ IMO.



If you're speaking as a group, no. If you're speaking as in individual, I think that's possible. That is, the cases of the living begins at some point of time. It makes sense that the Lord would begin with those whose characters have been fixed. If I understand you correctly, this is a point you were making earlier in this post, where you said that the Lord wouldn't judge the living unless they were ready. It seems to me possible that there would be some individuals whose character is such that the Lord knows they would pass the final test. However, in terms of the IJ ending, it seems clear to me from the quotes you cited that the IJ will not *end* before the MOB crises has been met and overcome.

Earlier in this post we have:



Given you didn't misspeak here, it seems to me you and I would have to be in agreement on this point. Do you see why? If not, I can explain why I'm saying this.

MM, Tom, I've suggested above that there are two phases to the Investigative Judgment of the Living: The measuring process going on now, and the final decision at or near the very end when God passes sentence and fixes the eternal destiny of the living. Some may be uncomfortable with calling the current measuring process - see Rev 11, first part - the first phase of the judgment of the living. Call it what you will; the crucial thing is to recognize the times we're living in and to co-operate with the 'Heavenly Architect' as Sister White calls Him, who has the golden measuring line in His hand. According to Revelation 11 this process began right after the Disappointment.

Ok, Mark, so you're suggesting an alternative to the way this is generally looked at, as I understand you. The way this is generally looked at is that God has a list of names, say like the White pages, and starts with the first name, examines that person, makes a decision, and then goes on to the next name. You're suggesting a process that involves all the names, which has several phases. One phase involves what you call measuring. It could also be called "evaluating," it seems to me. At the end of the evaluation comes a final decision.

I like this way of looking at things. I think it makes sense. If this isn't what you had in mind, I'll grab it anyway.

If we consider 1888 in this context, we could say that the process of evaluation for the corporate body (all those whose names were being considered) may have begun, but it never got to the final part where a final decision was made, because of the resistance to the message, etc. But had the message not been resisted, then in short order the Gospel would have gone to the world, the MOB crisis would have come about, and there would have been the final test, the sealing, the final decision.

Thanks for your comment Mark. This has helped me understand this better. (thanks too, MM, for your participation, as you "spurned me on" to be thinking about this).

Here's an SOP statement that came to mind as I was writing this:



This isn't quite the one I was thinking of, as the one I was thinking of spoke in terms of how quickly things would have spread. But this one is interesting too. Do you know how many SDA's there were at this time? Around 30,000 I believe. And that was enough. Now we have who knows how man millions. This should show that it's not a matter of having more SDA's, but of knowing the truth and proclaiming it.

i wonder, on a rare occasion, how soon Christ could have come.

starting with the setting up of israel, but it probably started before that, if the israelites had lived "according to plan" how soon would the Messiah have come and if they had still lived "according to plan", how long after that would it have been all over?

since taking a family for His people was proven to be a flop, and He took individuals after the cross to live "according to plan", but our history has proven to be much the same as the israelites, could Christ have come some years after His ascension?

if were saying the ij "had to happen", and im not questioning that, it certainly could have happened rather rapidly.

Mark, if what you're saying is correct, it would apply to everyone since the Fall of A&E, right? That is, what you're calling the first phase of the IJL applies to all regardless of their proximity to what you're calling the second phase of the IJL (which I assume you believe transpires during the little time of trouble just before human probation closes).

If so, then what you're calling the first phase of the IJL began before 1844. What, then, changed in 1844 when the Father and the Son moved from the HP to the MHP? What new phase of judgment did they begin? Also, how is what you're calling the first phase different than the "sealing" referred to in the following passages:

2 Corinthians
1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians
1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Good point. Some theologians believe that early on in the Bible it envisioned things playing out much differently than they have. It was not until after Israel failed so miserably did the Bible start describing things in terms of how they have played out so far. IOW, Jesus could have come long ago, perhaps even before the Flood but certainly before the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar. His self-sacrificing death would have played out differently too. Probably on the order of Abraham and Isaac. And, there would have been no long delay between His resurrection and establishment of the New Earth. At least some people seem to think along these lines.

After the Bible began speaking of things in terms of many years, namely Daniel's prophecies, it seems unlikely Jesus would have returned prior to 1844. Not that He lacked the will or ability, but that circumstances were not right. The same thing seems to apply since 1844, that is, circumstances have not been right for Him to return sooner than now. Yes, they got pretty close around 1888. I believe God knows the precise date Jesus will return, and that He has known it since the day Jesus began creating FMAs.