|
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,224
Members1,326
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11675
12/19/04 07:08 PM
12/19/04 07:08 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 635
New York
|
|
John, I want to appologize if I was too strong in my last post.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11676
12/19/04 07:49 PM
12/19/04 07:49 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 635
New York
|
|
Maybe it would be good if I show some specific places where you do not show understanding of what we are trying to say: quote:
Originally posted by John:
Let's look at some other statements which show beyond any doubt whatsoever that God does indeed kill when it suits His purpose:"Fire flashing from the cloud [of the Lord's presence] consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense."
{PP 401.1} [Korah's rebellion]
"The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits."
{GC 614.2}
"God has often visited judgment upon the false swearer, and even while the oath was on his lips, the destroying angel has cut him down. This was to prove a terror to evildoers."
{1T 202.2}
"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. . . It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace."
{GC 543.3}
"The judgment visited upon Ananias and Sapphira was to be a warning to the church through all time. The sin committed by these persons was similar to that of Achan, and the power of God searched them out and brought swift retribution upon them."
{ST 05-05-81 para. 15}
"Ananias and Sapphira wished to be regarded as giving all, and yet keep part. In order to do this, they falsified. Both of them agreed to practice deception, but they did it at the cost of their lives. God struck them both with death. "
{13MR 188.04} (1899)
"The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God."
{AA 152.1}
Numbers
22:32 "And the angel of the Lord said unto him [Balaam], Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
22:33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive."
(Did the angel of the Lord lie?)
2 Kings 19:35
"And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses."
(The "angel of the Lord" did this; not Satan or his angels.) Now let's look at the Flood account."The world was in its infancy; yet iniquity had become so deep and widespread that God could no longer bear with it; and He said, 'I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth.' He declared that His Spirit should not always strive with the guilty race. If they did not cease to pollute with their sins the world and its rich treasures, He would blot them from His creation, and would destroy the things with which He had delighted to bless them; He would sweep away the beasts of the field, and the vegetation which furnished such an abundant supply of food, and would transform the fair earth into one vast scene of desolation and ruin...."
{PP 92.1}
I have no problem with any of these quotes. God does indeed kill in both the first death and the second death. The first death is when the body either wears out or meets a tragety. God has seen that there have been times when it is best to put some of his children to sleep. The problems at the flood. In Sodom and Gamorah they felt that they needed to help Baal and the gods of life by throwing their lifeforces on the side of the gods of life. In otherwords, they thought they were helping their herds produce more young and their crops produce more food, and that they were providing for the prosperity of their families and children if they engaged in all types of actvitites that we now realize are abusive, including child abuse and does not result in their desired outcome. Fire from heaven on some of the rebels and enemies. Etc. etc.
Jesus indicates that this first death is not the big issue, but what happens in the judgment. Mrs. White discusses the deceptions of Satan and the issues of the Great Controversy. What happens at the end to the saved and lost are based on fully answering Satan's deceptions and the nature of sin and the nature, character purpose and perpetuity of God's law which is a reflection of his character.
Now there is one story that I am willing to sound like you seem to expect me to sound like, is with Passover in Egypt. With the idea that the blood of the lamb invited Yahweh to passover (or stop for a visit) with that family, while those without the blood are not welcoming Yahweh, so Yahweh passes on through, and without the pressence of the sourse of life, death came into the house. But even here we see God controling the situation, as normally all the germs from all the deaths from the plagues would have killed people at random, but God limited the victim to only the first born.
Oh, by the way, would it be ok for me to point out that in your quote from the Korah rebellion, that the fire came from God's pressence, which is the point that we are argueing and supporting; that the fire is not from some different location. Since you are trying to argue against our view, it would be wise for you to avoid these statements that play right into our hand.
quote:
Originally posted by John:
Lest anyone try to argue that God merely allowed Satan to cause the Flood, there's this:"Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence.....He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty."
{PP 99.3} No, Satan didn't cause the Flood, it was the Almighty Himself. Both the Bible and SOP are crystal clear. Some might try to say that the Bible language has been misinterpreted due to the difference in ancient Hebrew idiom and our own; but that argument can't be used in the case of the SOP. Ellen White spoke and wrote modern-day English, and she was very clear that God does kill. Very clear.
Once again, I fail to see where this statement is supposed to bother us. There is no dissagreement on this point, and I just find myself baffeled that you think that this quote should be an argument against our view. Isaiah tells us that God is the author of weal and woe, that God is indeed in ultamate control. God claims to have done the harsh things to Job (dispite attempts from people who believe in a litteral fire hell to try to explain away those texts.) The terms "Milk" and "Honey" are terms talking about the hard and easy parts of life. God is the God of both. Jesus says that God causes the sunshine (famine, the hard parts of life) and rain (showers of blessings) to fall on both the just and the unjust.
When it comes to the final judgment, once again God is in control, and God does indeed provide an actvity that DOES INDEED end up KILLING THE LOST. The issue is whether or not this is the EXACT SAME ACTVITY THAT CAUSES HEAVEN TO BE HEAVEN FOR THE SAVED or is God doing two sepperat actvities, one to the saved and the other to the lost. For some reason the criticts want to make different arguments where no argument nor dissagreement exists. Once again it is not WHETHER OR NOT GOD KILLS, but HOW DOES GOD KILL!
quote:
Originally posted by John:
The bare facts are that both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy declare again and again, in language that the simplest child can understand, that God does kill, and will punish sin by killing sinners in the lake of fire. He gains no pleasure from this (Ezekiel 18:32), but it will happen nonetheless. To deny this fact is to deny God's word, the plain statements of His messengers throughout the ages. Such a denial of the truth constitutes a dangerous delusion, since it misrepresents the very character of the Almighty.
Once again I have no problem with this statement, except for being baffeled that you for some reason think that I should have a problem with this statement. The only dissagreement we have is over what we believe the Bible and Mrs. White to teach what (or who) the lake of fire actually is, and over the exact mechanics as to how it kills the sinner. Again, this statement shows that you do not show any indicatation that you understand what we are trying to say. IT IS YOU JOHN who is claiming that we deny these truths, NOT US! WE BELIEVE and Afirm these truths! It is in how this truth works out that we hold different approaches to.
We want to present how we understand the Bible and Mrs. White to teach HOW the mechanics of this truth works out. But too many critics try to avoid the real issue by simply pretending that we don't believe these truths, and just defend the fact that this truth exists as a way to try to argue against us and think they simply solved the problem. In otherwords John, you keep barking up the wrong tree. You do not criticize our view, but you set up your own strawmen to knock down. You try to argue points where we have no quarel.
I don't mind what I teach to be criticized, but it would be nice if you could criticize what I'm actually teaching instead of things that I'm not teaching, but which you insist in imposing on my understanding.
[ December 19, 2004, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Kevin H ]
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11677
09/18/05 07:40 PM
09/18/05 07:40 PM
|
|
|
Here is a good example that shows the wrath of God in action:
quote:
1 Chronicles 21:15 MKJV And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. And as he was destroying, Jehovah looked. And He repented of the evil and said to the angel who destroyed, Enough! Stay your hand now! And the angel of Jehovah stood by the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
An angel of God destroying, not a fallen angel, but an angel of God.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11678
09/18/05 08:37 PM
09/18/05 08:37 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Daryl, while I went ahead and addressed your post, it appeared to me that it didn't really belong in this thread. This thread, despite the open-ended sounding title, has up until now been discussing the destruction of the wicked at the final judgment. The topic discussing the flood, in spite of its more specific sounding title, on the other hand has been all over the place regarding what it has discussed. Continuing ... If the goal is to understand God's character, the way to do this is by studying the life and character of Jesus Christ. quote:
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." Testimonies for the Church, 8:286.
If we try to figure out what's happening in the Old Testament, and we choose to ignore the revelation God has given us, we are doomed to fail. Even the holy angels did not understand things until the cross:
quote:
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)
So if even holy angels couldn't understand things apart from Christ, why should we think we can properly divide the word of truth while ignoring Christ?
quote:
:In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary, and in connection with the wondrous, central truth of the Saviour's atonement. (5ABC 1137)
So in considering any incident, we should think of how the cross of Christ sheds light on the incident, because our theory of truth will be off if we don't (see the above guote).
If we take into account that God is often presented as doing that which He permits, the above quote should not cause difficulty. For example, from the same book we have:
quote:
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. (1 Chron 10:14)
If you were to take just this one quote, and use the same principle you're trying to apply above, you would conclude that God killed Saul. But Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits, which is just what happened here.
Here's another example from Chronicals:
quote:
19 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." (2 Chron. 18:19-22)
Whatever theory we come up with regarding God's wrath, it should be in harmony with other inspiration. For example, we have the following principles from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
quote:
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. (DA 79)
quote:
The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.
So, in conclusion, I don't think taking a single text without any consideration to how the author of Chronicals frequently presents God as doing that which He permits, or the other principles I've laid out is not the best way to approach a study of God's wrath.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11679
09/18/05 08:56 PM
09/18/05 08:56 PM
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Daryl Fawcett:
As a result of the discussion in another topic I have created this topic on The Wrath of God where we can ask and answer such questions as:
1 - What is the wrath of God?
2 - Does God kill, or does man, etc. kill himself?
Let the discussion from that other topic begin and continue here.
I think what I posted is relevant in relation to the 2nd question I posted in the first post of this topic, which I created.
Also, such a clear text still needs to be explained. In the case of the text I posted, God clearly sent the angel to destroy, therefore, God in this instance did kill.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11680
09/18/05 10:00 PM
09/18/05 10:00 PM
|
|
|
By the way, that isn't the only reference wherein it says who kills or destroys who? quote:
Genesis 18:32 And he said, Oh do not let Jehovah be angry, and I will speak only once more. Perhaps ten shall be found there. And He said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And Jehovah went His way as soon as He had left off talking with Abraham. And Abraham returned to his place.
Jehovah said that He will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Who will not destroy it? Jehovah God will not destroy it.
So, who destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah and its people? Jehovah God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah and its people.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11681
09/19/05 03:27 AM
09/19/05 03:27 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Regarding the appropriateness of the material, you're right. You started the thread, so should be able to direct it. Although it started in one direction doesn't mean it has to stay there. Picking texts out at random out of context is a hopeless way to try to understand God's character. That is the goal, isn't it? God's character is revealed perfectly in Jesus Christ. THAT'S the place to start. Start there, get the principles, and then start romping around from place to place, and there might be some hope in getting it right. For example, consider the following quote: quote:
All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. (8T 236)
Is this statement true? Does it mean anything? If it is true, and meaniful, then it must mean the following:
1.All that man needs to know of God was revealed in the life an character of His Son.
2.All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
The corollary of this would be:
1. There is nothing which man needs to know of God which was not revealed in the life and character of His Son.
2. There is nothing man can know of God which was not revealed in the life and character of His Son.
So if we study isolated incidents without regard to the life and character of Jesus Christ, all we will be "learning" are things which we need not know and cannot know.
If we take some incident which seems to portray God in a way which is out of harmony with what was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we either need to find something in the life and character of Christ which supports our viewpoint, or rethink what we think.
Here's another quote to consider:
quote:
Force is the last resort of every false religion. (7SDABC 9)
If there's no difference between God and false religion, something seems wrong.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11682
09/20/05 02:10 AM
09/20/05 02:10 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Thank you, Daryl, for pointing out the obvious. Yes, God has, and will, destroy unsaved sinners. The wrath of God is love. It is not contrary to His law or character to punish and destroy those who reject His love and salvation.
True, it is a "strange act", one that we cannot easily comprehend, but God knows what He is doing and, by faith, it is our duty and privilege to rejoice with the holy angels when God exercises His divine duty to punish and destroy the rejecters of His mercy.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11683
09/20/05 02:15 AM
09/20/05 02:15 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Thank you, Daryl, for pointing out the obvious. Yes, God has, and will, destroy unsaved sinners. The wrath of God is love. It is not contrary to His law or character to punish and destroy those who reject His love and salvation.
Pardon me for being obtuse, Mike, but since this is obvious you should have no trouble doing this. Given that all we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity, please show me where in Jesus' life here on earth He destroyed someone who rejected His love.
Thank you.
|
|
|
Re: The Wrath of God
#11684
09/20/05 02:52 AM
09/20/05 02:52 AM
|
|
|
Tom, You need to see Christ in His four primary roles:1 - before His 1st Coming as Lord, King, Judge, and Saviour, 2- during His 1st Coming as Saviour, Lord, and King, 3 - at and during His 2nd Coming as Saviour, Lord, King, and Judge. 4 - and finally at and during His 3rd Coming as Judge, Lord, and King. His role during His first coming wasn't a role of condemnation, but solely a role of salvation or Saviour. quote:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
The above two verses are only a sample of the many verses that reveals what His role was during His 1st Coming or Advent.
For Him to condemn and destroy then, particularly during His time on earth, would be going outside of His desired role of Saviour, and even then when He does destroy, such as in the case of The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. He does it with sadness. It truly is His strange act.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
