My Mom quit smoking cold turkey. She's not a Christian. If you were to say that she still quit by the power of God, I would agree, but I would also say that anyone who quits sinning, regardless of the sin, or how long it takes them, is doing so by the power of God.

Sometime the problem is a lack of perception. If may take God a long time to get through to a person so the person can even see what the problem is.

The idea that anyone can slowly quit sinning has no foundation in truth whatsoever (assuming you mean "apart from God's power," which what you wrote implies, the way you structured it).

no.

i take orders from God only.

That's the only safe course of action.

Do you think the following passage describes your mother's experience the day she quit smoking cold turkey:

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}


Here's how Ellen White described it:

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}

You said, "Anybody can slowly quit sinning." in contrast to "But only God can empower people to stop sinning in His appointed way." This isn't true. *Nobody* has the power to stop sinning without the power of God, whether slowly or otherwise.

I don't understand your question (i.e., why you are asking it).



I don't understand why you're quoting these things. They don't address the point I made. No one can overcome sin on their own. The idea that "anybody can stop sinning, provided they do it slowly" is false.

If a person struggles to overcome something difficult, and overcomes, they should be commended, not criticized, don't you think?

Tom, you're right, nobody can stop "sinning" without the supernatural of God. However, according to the following passages, certain strong-willed people can give up certain sinful habits:

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1} Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. {SC 18.1}

What do you call it when someone quits smoking without the "renewing power of Christ"? Have they stopped sinning? Or, are they still guilty of sinning? If so, in what sense? Of course, I'm specifically addressing the issue of quitting the sin of smoking and not ceasing to sin in general.

Because I'm trying to figure out which of the two following passages applies to unbelievers who quit smoking or any sinful habit:

1. It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. {SC 27.1}

2. It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1} Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. {SC 18.1}

Do you see a difference in the two scenarios and outcomes described above? If so, how do we determine which one applies to unbelievers who give up sinful habits? If not, please explain why you think they are describing the same thing.

Yes. Unless, of course, they go around telling everyone it is possible to overcome bad habits without the "renewing power of Christ", that any higher power will do, that Jesus is not the only way to overcome.

MM, I was mainly taking issue with two things you said. One was that anyone could stop sinning if they did it slowly. The other was that when someone spoke of a woman who stopped smoking after many years of struggling with it, it sounded to me like you were being critical. That was my impression.

Regarding your question regarding will power and stopping a bad habit and sinning etc., it really depends on how you define your terms. God is interested in helping us live healthfully, and, of ourselves, we can't free ourselves of the power of sin. Some people have been blessed with more will power than others, and are able to do things cold turkey easier than others, and may mistake that for overcoming by the power of God. Since will power is itself a gift from God, regardless of how anyone overcomes, it's a gift of God.

Pride can manifest itself in many ways.

I think the weightier matters of sin have to do with how we view God and how we treat others.

They did not surrender themselves to God daily,

that Christ might dwell in the heart; and when the evil spirit returned, with "seven other spirits more wicked than himself," they were wholly dominated by the power of evil. {DA 323.3}

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ,

a new power takes possession of the new heart.

A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself.

It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature.

The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world,

and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own.

A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan.

But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one.

We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world.

It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion.

We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness.

Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin.

We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan;

but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome.

Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}