Good point. Some theologians believe that early on in the Bible it envisioned things playing out much differently than they have. It was not until after Israel failed so miserably did the Bible start describing things in terms of how they have played out so far. IOW, Jesus could have come long ago, perhaps even before the Flood but certainly before the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar. His self-sacrificing death would have played out differently too. Probably on the order of Abraham and Isaac. And, there would have been no long delay between His resurrection and establishment of the New Earth. At least some people seem to think along these lines.

After the Bible began speaking of things in terms of many years, namely Daniel's prophecies, it seems unlikely Jesus would have returned prior to 1844. Not that He lacked the will or ability, but that circumstances were not right.

The same thing seems to apply since 1844, that is, circumstances have not been right for Him to return sooner than now.

Yes, they got pretty close around 1888. I believe God knows the precise date Jesus will return, and that He has known it since the day Jesus began creating FMAs.

M: I addressed the issue of “time” because you brought up “around 1888”. At any rate, I disagree that it has nothing to do with time. Timing is everything, as they say. The scroll unfolds in a timely, orderly manner. Prophecy is following a minutely mapped out timeline. Jesus often said, “My time is not yet come.” The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.

T: That Christ has not come yet has nothing to do with Prophecy. You agree with that, don't you?

M: Yes. However, that isn’t the point I’m making. What I’m saying is the prophecies which have yet to be fulfilled will play out in a particular sequence according to God’s timing. I was responding to your comment that “time” has nothing to do with it.

T: What do you mean "according to God's timing?" God timing was that Christ would have come shortly after 1844. This was made clear by EGW's statement that "Christ could have come 'ere this" in the 1850's.

God's timing was that Christ would have come in the 1888 era. Ellen White makes this clear in a number of statements, including one where we're told that Christ was disappointed that He could not come. I'm not understanding your comment about God's timing. If it were up to God's timing, Christ would have come years ago. It's not God's fault that Christ hasn't come yet.

T: Given that things were so close, it seems possible to me that the IJ could have started looking at the cases of the living.

M: Possible, yes, but without an inspired quote saying so we shouldn’t assume it is so.

T: If you say it's possible, then you're in agreement with me. There's nothing I wrote that was in any way assuming this was so, right? I'd never even had the thought until I responded to some post of yours on this thread. I certainly wasn't assuming this. I simply through this out as a possibility.

T: Destinies are fixed by character. Not by things written in books.

M: Is there a difference between character and the things written in the books in heaven? Are they not one and the same thing!

T: No, they're not the same thing. One is reality and the other is a picture of reality. It's like asking if there's a difference between a beautiful place and a picture of the place. You like the Sierra Nevada mountains. Is there a difference between Yosemite Valley and a picture of it?

“As the features of the countenance are reproduced with unerring accuracy on the polished plate of the artist, so the character is faithfully delineated in the books above.” {GC 487.1}

M: At any rate, you didn’t address my questions. The following passages make it clear that once a person’s case is examined during the IJ their destiny is forever fixed:

T: Their destiny is not fixed by any actions taking place in the IJ. Their destiny is fixed by their character, and the actions of the IJ recognize this reality.

“When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death.”

M: I believe the destiny of each person is decided the moment Jesus finishes examining their case . . .

T: It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case. In fact, I don't see how this could not be the case. What Jesus does is simply an evaluation. He doesn't fix their destiny. They do. He recognizes the decision they've made.

. . . , that is, I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided.

T: Waits for what?

M: This insight leads me to conclude that during the IJL, when a person’s case comes up, their destiny is fixed forever while they are still alive.

T: I don't [think] there's any question about this, is there?

M: Jesus will not examine the cases of the living before they are ready, before they are without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing.

T: So if they're not ready, He'll wait? That is, if some living person is not ready, Jesus doesn't examine their case? Does He pass over it and come back to it later? Or He doesn't examine the cases of any of the living? I don't know what you're trying to say here.

M: It must be evident that they are holy and without blemish or that it is never going to happen. He cannot examine their cases before their eternal destiny is clear. Otherwise, it would be premature. That’s why He waits until after a person is dead to examine their case and decide their eternal destiny.

T: I don't know what your point is here. Are you disagreeing with something I said? Or just making a general point? If the latter, for what purpose?

T: I think you're thinking of this in terms of time again. It's not too late in the sense of time, but of condition. The whole thing has to do with character, and the evaluation of character. Not arbitrary decisions being made on the basis of time.
M: True. But there comes a “time” when their cases must be examined and their eternal destiny decided. That time comes when it is evident that they have made their final decision to be saved or not to be saved. Should they die in this state (i.e. made their final decision), their eternal destiny will reflect it when Jesus examines their case. Should they achieve this state when the IJ progresses to include the cases of the living, their eternal destiny will reflect it when Jesus examines their case. They will be numbered and sealed among the 144,000. At this point, the moment their case has been decided, they will not do anything that would require Jesus to change it. Nor will they taste death. They will be translated alive when Jesus arrives.

T: Ok. It looks like you're agreeing with what I said. If so, I agree with you.

M: Also, it doesn’t make sense to me to suggest (not saying you are) that a person can be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test”. What if they blow it – then what? Will God have to unnumber and unseal them and then rejudge them?

T: How could they "blow it"? God would have to be wrong in His evaluation, wouldn't He?

M: My point precisely.

T: I thought that was my point. You asked the question, "What if they blow it?" Not me.

M: And, will they know [that have been] numbered and sealed, that they will not taste death, and that they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives?

T: If you mean the exact moment, no. If you mean before Jesus returns, yes.

M: How long before Jesus arrives will they know they [have been] numbered and sealed and are going to be translated alive? Will they know it at the time probation closes?

T: MM, I just had the point to make that you said the Seventh-day Adventist position is that the IJ could not have passed into the cases of the living.

M: Okay. But I’m still interested in your answer to the questions above.

T: The righteous will know that they will be translated at some point before Jesus returns. I don't believe we're told the precise moment this occurs.

T: Regarding the 1911 statement, and that nothing has changed since then to suggest that the IJ has passed to the cases of the living, if you're talking about in terms of common sense or intuition, I completely agree. That is, if someone asked me my opinion about whether the cases have passed to the living, I would say I don't think so. But to assert that this is impossible, that it couldn't have happened, I don't know that it's possible to assert that.

M: The reason I bring up the “prayer messages” of Rev 14:15-20 is because it speaks to the question of whether or not the judged, numbered, and sealed saints will know that they have been numbered and sealed, that they will not die, that they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives. Before they can pray for Jesus to thrust in His sickle they must first know that the time has arrived for Him to do so.

T: I don't think this is necessarily the case. After all, John himself, who wrote Revelation, prayed, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."

M: IOW, they would need to know that probation has closed, which means they would also know that the IJ is finished.

T: Why? I think we can pray the prayer, and should pray the prayer, that the harvest be collected. This is a prayer of the heart, and expression of the desire that the Lord return. That's how I understand it.

M: You asked, "For example, Revelation speaks of angels who day and night say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" etc. Do you think this is literal?" Possibly. I don't see why it would be impossible.

T: Because it would be robotic. God's character is not such that He would be honored by such robotic praise.

M: Do you agree that both Ellen and James White believed the angels symbolized the 144,000 praying to Jesus to return and take them home and to destroy the unsaved? I agree that the words recorded in Rev 14 may not be the exact words they will use.

T: I don't think the 144,000 will be praying that the unsaved be destroyed. That's not the Spirit of Christ IMO.

1. Will the 144,000 know when their case is being examined in heaven above?
2. And, will they know when they are numbered and sealed, that they will not taste death, that they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives?
3. Finally, can any of these things happen before they pass the "final test" (i.e. staying loyal and faithful during the MOB crisis)?

T: Can't answer [3] without "these things" being defined. If you're talking about the things referred to in the quotes you cited, no.

M: The “these things” in the number 3 refers to the things named in the previous two questions. Namely, can they be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test”?

T: If you're speaking as a group, no. If you're speaking as in individual, I think that's possible. That is, the cases of the living begins at some point of time. It makes sense that the Lord would begin with those whose characters have been fixed. If I understand you correctly, this is a point you were making earlier in this post, where you said that the Lord wouldn't judge the living unless they were ready. It seems to me possible that there would be some individuals whose character is such that the Lord knows they would pass the final test. However, in terms of the IJ ending, it seems clear to me from the quotes you cited that the IJ will not *end* before the MOB crises has been met and overcome. Earlier in this post we have:


Given you didn't misspeak here, it seems to me you and I would have to be in agreement on this point. Do you see why? If not, I can explain why I'm saying this.

True, it is not God’s fault that Jesus hasn’t returned yet. It’s our fault (the SDA Church). No doubt about it. However, this isn’t the point I’ve been addressing. I’ve repasted my first post in this volley so you can see how we got to this point. Please note in particular the following insight: “The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.”

By “God’s timing” (poor choice of words) I have in mind the idea that He will not cause or permit these events to play out in their proper sequence until the circumstances are right. Yes, around 1888 they began to play out, but they did not finish their course. Why? Because the circumstances were not right. Things fell apart along the way. But when the circumstances are right God will allow them to play out to completion in the proper sequence. Do you see what I mean?

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234,5)

T: Given that things were so close, it seems possible to me that the IJ could have started looking at the cases of the living.

M: Possible, yes, but without an inspired quote saying so we shouldn’t assume it is so.

T: If you say it's possible, then you're in agreement with me. There's nothing I wrote that was in any way assuming this was so, right? I'd never even had the thought until I responded to some post of yours on this thread. I certainly wasn't assuming this. I simply through this out as a possibility.

M:Okay. But please don’t read into my use of the word “possible” that I think it might have actually happened.

I am 100% certain it didn’t.

I realize you’re not saying it did. But you are allowing for the possibility that it might have. Whereas, I do not. I’m sorry I used the word “possible”. It conveyed the wrong idea.

You wrote, “Destinies are fixed by character. Not by things written in books.” I believe the books in heaven contain an accurate account of character and that they can be used to accurately determine one’s eternal destiny. The fact it is so is evidence of the point. See the quotes I posted previously.

T: Their destiny is not fixed by any actions taking place in the IJ. Their destiny is fixed by their character, and the actions of the IJ recognize this reality.

M:Isn’t it both? The actions taken in heaven during the IJ are as essential as the characters developed on earth in determining one’s eternal destiny, right?

My main point is that destinies are irreversibly fixed as each case is decided.

If this happens while a person is alive my question is – Will they die? In answering this question please include inspired statements.

. . . , that is, I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided.

T: Waits for what?

M:To number and seal them the exact instant each case is decided (as opposed to waiting and doing it for everyone at the same when the last case is decided).

T: So if they're not ready, He'll wait? That is, if some living person is not ready, Jesus doesn't examine their case? Does He pass over it and come back to it later? Or He doesn't examine the cases of any of the living? I don't know what you're trying to say here.

M:If they’re not ready to be numbered and sealed, for whatever reason (i.e. still ignorantly sinning or not living when the IJL is transpiring), then, yes, Jesus will wait until they are ready. He might have to wait until after they die or until after they respond to the loud cry of the latter rain during the MOB crisis.

MM:Sorry I wasn’t clearer. Yeah, Jesus will not take up a person’s case in the IJ while they are still alive if they’re not ready for the reasons I named in my last comment above. Do you see what I mean?

MM:Great. Such unity was the basis of Jesus’ prayer, eh! However, let me clarify something you seem to be agreeing to. Are you saying you believe once Jesus numbers and seals someone that they will not die, that they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives? If so, doesn’t it disallow the possibility that people were numbered and sealed and have since died?

M:Right you are! But are you also saying people cannot be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test” (i.e. demonstrating loyalty during the MOB crisis)?

M:I agree they will know it before Jesus arrives. I also happen to believe they will know it the exact instant Jesus blots out their record and memory of sins and retains their names in the book of life, which happens before human probation closes.

M:As I stated above, and for the reasons I’ve outlined since then, I am convinced it hasn’t happened yet. It cannot happen until sometime after the MOB crisis begins. Do you see what I mean?

T: I don't think this is necessarily the case. After all, John himself, who wrote Revelation, prayed, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."

Was John praying the same kind of prayer recorded in Rev 14:15-20? That is, did he believe that the time was right, that probation had closed, that Jesus had stood up and pronounced, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still”? I don’t think that’s what he had in mind when he wrote, "Even so, come Lord Jesus." Do you? ....

The prayers of Rev 14:15-20, as I understand it, are specifically telling Jesus to reap the saved and unsaved because everyone has refused or received the seal of God during the MOB crisis. Please note that these two prayers follow the 3AMs, which describe events unfolding during the MOB crisis.

M: You asked, "For example, Revelation speaks of angels who day and night say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" etc. Do you think this is literal?" Possibly. I don't see why it would be impossible.

T: Because it would be robotic. God's character is not such that He would be honored by such robotic praise.

M:Unless it is genuinely heartfelt and not robotic.

What do you think the following prayer symbolizes: “Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.” Will they know it will result in Jesus doing the following: “And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

M:You wrote, “It seems to me possible that there would be some individuals whose character is such that the Lord knows they would pass the final test.” Are you suggesting He would judge, number, and seal such people before the MOB crisis begins?

You wrote, “However, in terms of the IJ ending, it seems clear to me from the quotes you cited that the IJ will not *end* before the MOB crises has been met and overcome.” In what order though? In other words, must they meet and overcome the MOB crisis before they are judge, numbered, and sealed? Also, do you think the IJ and human probation will end at essentially the same time?

M: True, it is not God’s fault that Jesus hasn’t returned yet. It’s our fault (the SDA Church). No doubt about it. However, this isn’t the point I’ve been addressing. I’ve repasted my first post in this volley so you can see how we got to this point. Please note in particular the following insight: “The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.”

By “God’s timing” (poor choice of words) I have in mind the idea that He will not cause or permit these events to play out in their proper sequence until the circumstances are right. Yes, around 1888 they began to play out, but they did not finish their course. Why? Because the circumstances were not right. Things fell apart along the way. But when the circumstances are right God will allow them to play out to completion in the proper sequence. Do you see what I mean?

T: I don't think it's so much God's allowing things to play out as they didn't play out because they didn't happen. It's not like God prevented certain things from happening (I'm not talking about destructive things, but the time-line things you mentioned), but there wasn't the response Christ anticipated, and things petered out. Ellen White describes this in the 1SM quote:

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234,5)

T: Given that things were so close, it seems possible to me that the IJ could have started looking at the cases of the living.

M: Possible, yes, but without an inspired quote saying so we shouldn’t assume it is so.

T: If you say it's possible, then you're in agreement with me. There's nothing I wrote that was in any way assuming this was so, right? I'd never even had the thought until I responded to some post of yours on this thread. I certainly wasn't assuming this. I simply through this out as a possibility.

M: Okay. But please don’t read into my use of the word “possible” that I think it might have actually happened.

T: Huh? MM, you're going to need to brush up on your use of language.

M: I am 100% certain it didn’t.

T: Then a better choice of words would have been "no" instead of yes. That is, "possible, no" as opposed to "possible, yes."

M: I realize you’re not saying it did. But you are allowing for the possibility that it might have. Whereas, I do not. I’m sorry I used the word “possible”. It conveyed the wrong idea.

T: Yes, it conveyed the wrong idea because you said the exact opposite of what you meant. It wasn't "possible" that was the offending word, but the word "yes."

T: So I'm guessing you think it's impossible because of the 1911 statement that it hadn't happened by then? If so, this is what I was addressing in saying that it's not a matter of time. That is, the "measuring process," as Mark put it, could have begun in the 1888 era, and then shut down. That seems like a rather likely scenario, considering how close Christ was to coming. The latter rain had begun to fall, the loud cry of the third angel's message was being given; we were certainly a lot closer to Christ's coming than in 1911. I don't see how you can be 100% sure about this. Doesn't is cross your mind that you might be wrong in one of your assumptions?

Several times during the past winter [1888-89.] I have met the report that, during the Conference at Minneapolis, "Sister White was shown that the judgment, which since 1844 had been passing upon the righteous dead, had now begun upon the living." This report is not true. {5T 692.1}

He then began to read something he had written, which stated among other things that the judgment has now begun upon the living. . . . I listened as he went on and finally said, "My brother, you are not exactly in your right mind. --Letter 66, 1894. {LDE 22.1}

M: My main point is that destinies are irreversibly fixed as each case is decided.

T: My main point is that this isn't the case. It's the person's *character* that determines their destiny. The investigation in the IJ *recognizes* the reality of each person's character, as it is examined. It doesn't change or impact or fix their character in any way.

M: If this happens while a person is alive my question is – Will they die? In answering this question please include inspired statements.

T: I commented about the process a bit earlier in the White Pages post. I don't think you're looking at this in the sense that Mark was speaking of in speaking of "measuring," which I commented on in speaking of the White Pages. If you're speaking of the measuring process, then yes, the person could die, if that process was started but not completed. If you're talking about the *end* of the process, then *that's* when the declaration is made that "whosoever is filthy, let him remain filthy," etc. I'm not saying this process was *complete* for any living person in the 1888 era, but that the process could have *begun*. Iow, the "measuring" process that Mark spoke of. Once someone has been pronounced "holy," I don't believe he will die.

T: It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case. In fact, I don't see how this could not be the case. What Jesus does is simply an evaluation. He doesn't fix their destiny. They do. He recognizes the decision they've made.

M: Are you sure? It almost makes it sound like the IJ is a mere formality, that it is essentially unnecessary. Are you sure there isn’t more to it, that Jesus’ decision to blot out their sins and retain their names in the book of life isn’t more significant than merely recognizing they have developed characters worthy of eternal life?

T: It's an evaluation that's absolutely necessary. The beings who benefit by the evaluation can't read God's mind. It's not for God's benefit.

M: . . . , that is, I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided.

T: Waits for what?

M: To number and seal them the exact instant each case is decided (as opposed to waiting and doing it for everyone at the same when the last case is decided).

T: What Mark is suggesting, if I'm understanding him correctly, is that there's a measuring process that involves each one. When that process is finished, then the final stage occurs, where a final decision is rendered for each one.

The exact instant a case is decided doesn't really matter. What matters is that the people who are being evaluated have made their final decision for Christ, to follow the lamb wherever He goes. It's not the evaluation that drives things, but the characters which have been formed.

Here's an analogy. A student takes a test in a school course. The teacher evaluates the test. The instant the exam is graded doesn't really matter. What matters is the exam itself, what answers the student made.

M: Jesus will not examine the cases of the living before they are ready, before they are without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing.

T: So if they're not ready, He'll wait? That is, if some living person is not ready, Jesus doesn't examine their case? Does He pass over it and come back to it later? Or He doesn't examine the cases of any of the living? I don't know what you're trying to say here.

M: If they’re not ready to be numbered and sealed, for whatever reason (i.e. still ignorantly sinning or not living when the IJL is transpiring), then, yes, Jesus will wait until they are ready. He might have to wait until after they die or until after they respond to the loud cry of the latter rain during the MOB crisis.

T: I don't necessarily disagree with this, but may think about what's happening a bit differently. I think the latter rain falling drives things. If the message is responded to, then that matures the harvest, allowing the true followers of Christ to be sealed.

M: Sorry I wasn’t clearer. Yeah, Jesus will not take up a person’s case in the IJ while they are still alive if they’re not ready for the reasons I named in my last comment above. Do you see what I mean?

T: I think the Gospel pushes people one way or the other. The latter rain either results in a maturing of the harvest, or a falling away (with some exceptions, who are, in mercy, laid to rest, possibly because of age or health reasons). This is how I see things.

M: Great. Such unity was the basis of Jesus’ prayer, eh! However, let me clarify something you seem to be agreeing to. Are you saying you believe once Jesus numbers and seals someone that they will not die, that they will be translated alive when Jesus arrives? If so, doesn’t it disallow the possibility that people were numbered and sealed and have since died?

T: Yes.

M: Right you are! But are you also saying people cannot be judged, numbered, and sealed before they pass the “final test” (i.e. demonstrating loyalty during the MOB crisis)?

T: I don't think this happens sequentially for each person, as you seem to be thinking of it. Mark spoke of a "measuring process," which I think may be happening for everyone. This would correspond to a falling of the latter rain. That make sense to me. Because the message was resisted, the harvest didn't mature, and things didn't get to the sealing point.

M: I agree they will know it before Jesus arrives. I also happen to believe they will know it the exact instant Jesus blots out their record and memory of sins and retains their names in the book of life, which happens before human probation closes.

T: I don't know of any evidence to suggest this. This would seem extremely odd to me if it were the case. Isn't there a statement in the SOP about people being sealed and they followers of Christ are unaware this is happening? I seem to recall something like this in "The Great Controversy."

Zechariah's vision of Joshua and the Angel applies with peculiar force to the experience of God's people in the closing up of the great day of atonement. The remnant church will be brought into great trial and distress. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus will feel the ire of the dragon and his hosts. Satan numbers the world as his subjects, he has gained control of the apostate churches; but here is a little company that are resisting his supremacy. If he could blot them from the earth, his triumph would be complete. As he influenced the heathen nations to destroy Israel, so in the near future he will stir up the wicked powers of earth to destroy the people of God. All will be required to render obedience to human edicts in violation of the divine law. Those who will be true to God and to duty will be menaced, denounced, and proscribed. They will "be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends." {5T 472.2}

Their only hope is in the mercy of God; their only defense will be prayer. As Joshua was pleading before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and earnest faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness, and as they look upon themselves they are ready to despair. The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright the soul with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes to so destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, turn from their allegiance to God, and receive the mark of the beast. {5T 473.1}

Satan urges before God his accusations against them, declaring that they have by their sins forfeited the divine protection, and claiming the right to destroy them as transgressors. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven and the place of the angels who united with me? While they profess to obey the law of God, have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins which have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred toward one another." {5T 473.2}

The people of God have been in many respects very faulty. Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these in the most exaggerated light, declaring: "Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Thy throne will not stand in righteousness and judgment. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." {5T 474.1}

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin, and also their repentance, declares: "'The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan.' I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands." {5T 474.2}

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected; unbelief must be overcome; faith, hope, and patience are to be developed. {5T 474.3}

The people of God are sighing and crying for the abominations done in the land. With tears they warn the wicked of their danger in trampling upon the divine law, and with unutterable sorrow they humble themselves before the Lord on account of their own transgressions. The wicked mock their sorrow, ridicule their solemn appeals, and sneer at what they term their weakness. But the anguish and humiliation of God's people is unmistakable evidence that they are regaining the strength and nobility of character lost in consequence of sin. It is because they are drawing nearer to Christ, and their eyes are fixed upon His perfect purity, that they so clearly discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Their contrition and self-abasement are infinitely more acceptable in the sight of God than is the self-sufficient, haughty spirit of those who see no cause to lament, who scorn the humility of Christ, and who claim perfection while transgressing God's holy law. Meekness and lowliness of heart are the conditions for strength and victory. The crown of glory awaits those who bow at the foot of the cross. Blessed are these mourners, for they shall be comforted. {5T 474.4}

The faithful, praying ones are, as it were, shut in with God. They themselves know not how securely they are shielded. Urged on by Satan, the rulers of this world are seeking to destroy them; but could their eyes be opened, as were the eyes of Elisha's servant at Dothan, they would see the angels of God encamped about them, by their brightness and glory holding in check the hosts of darkness. {5T 475.1}

As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, "Take away the filthy garments" from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." The spotless robe of Christ's righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, yet faithful children of God. The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world. Their names are retained in the Lamb's book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages. They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon's roar. Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin. And the remnant are not only pardoned and accepted, but honored. "A fair miter" is set upon their heads. They are to be as kings and priests unto God. While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God. These are they that stand upon Mount Zion with the Lamb, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. They sing the new song before the throne, that song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." {5T 475.2}

Now is reached the complete fulfillment of those words of the Angel: "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My servant the Branch." Christ is revealed as the Redeemer and Deliverer of His people. Now indeed are the remnant "men wondered at," as the tears and humiliation of their pilgrimage give place to joy and honor in the presence of God and the Lamb. "In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem." {5T 476.1}

Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. Certain destruction threatens them, and like Jacob they will not suffer their faith to grow weak, because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the pangs of hunger, they will not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the angel, and the language of their soul is, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me." The saints at length prevail like Jacob, and are gloriously delivered by the voice of God. {3SG 134.2}

M: As I stated above, and for the reasons I’ve outlined since then, I am convinced it hasn’t happened yet. It cannot happen until sometime after the MOB crisis begins. Do you see what I mean?

T: Yes, I think I understand you're reasoning, which is predicated on a sequential course of events on an individual basis. That is, your way of looking at things doesn't allow for a corporate measuring to take place. It seems to me quite possible that the measuring phase of the IJ would take place as the latter rain is falling, which prepares the harvest.

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. {GC 483.1}

We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {GC 489.3}

T: I don't think this is necessarily the case. After all, John himself, who wrote Revelation, prayed, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."

M: Was John praying the same kind of prayer recorded in Rev 14:15-20? That is, did he believe that the time was right, that probation had closed, that Jesus had stood up and pronounced, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still”? I don’t think that’s what he had in mind when he wrote, "Even so, come Lord Jesus." Do you? ....

The prayers of Rev 14:15-20, as I understand it, are specifically telling Jesus to reap the saved and unsaved because everyone has refused or received the seal of God during the MOB crisis. Please note that these two prayers follow the 3AMs, which describe events unfolding during the MOB crisis.

T: I think Revelation expresses the general desire that Jesus Christ return and receive His reward as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

M: You asked, "For example, Revelation speaks of angels who day and night say, "Holy, Holy, Holy" etc. Do you think this is literal?" Possibly. I don't see why it would be impossible.

T: Because it would be robotic. God's character is not such that He would be honored by such robotic praise.

M: Unless it is genuinely heartfelt and not robotic.

T: Various religions do this, repeatedly saying prayers, but didn't Christ made clear this wasn't something desirable from God's point of view? Is your conception of God that He would be honored by an intelligent being only uttering a couple of words over and over again throughout eternity?

You say, "Unless it's genuinely heartfelt, and not robotic" Do you really think it's possible to say something 10 trillion times and not be robotic? (I sure hope you don't answer this "yes").

M: What do you think the following prayer symbolizes: “Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.” Will they know it will result in Jesus doing the following: “And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

T: What I said before.

M: You wrote, “It seems to me possible that there would be some individuals whose character is such that the Lord knows they would pass the final test.” Are you suggesting He would judge, number, and seal such people before the MOB crisis begins?

T: No. I don't think it's sequential like this.

M: You wrote, “However, in terms of the IJ ending, it seems clear to me from the quotes you cited that the IJ will not *end* before the MOB crises has been met and overcome.” In what order though? In other words, must they meet and overcome the MOB crisis before they are judge, numbered, and sealed? Also, do you think the IJ and human probation will end at essentially the same time?

T: I think you think it goes:

1.Person a. Judge, number, seal. Next!
2.Person b. Judge, number, seal. Next!

and so forth.

M: Correct.

T: If this were the right way of looking at things, I would agree with you that the process could not have started with the living. However, I think there's another possibility, which Mark alluded to. I think it's possible that the "measuring" process could take place at the same time that latter rain is falling. That actually makes sense to me, because the latter rain is what causes the harvest to ripen. So it makes sense to me that this could take part as a part of the measuring process. In the 1888 era, we fell short in that measuring process. Although there may have been individuals ready to go through, corporately we weren't ready, so the process was aborted; the latter rain ceased to fall.

You wrote, “I don't think it's so much God's allowing things to play out as they didn't play out because they didn't happen.” Doesn’t this assume the Holy Spirit and holy angels were inactive, that they weren’t doing anything?

Below you wrote, “The latter rain had begun to fall . . .” Didn’t God pull the plug (or put it back in place) on the latter rain?

Also, there are other events which depend on God being proactive. Above I wrote, “The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.” Because man failed to follow through with his part, God was unable to continue doing His part. Nothing can progress further than God’s part. Nor will God progress further if man doesn’t do his part.

Not only did she say the IJ hadn’t progressed to include the cases of the living in 1911, she also confirmed it 1858, 1884 and 1888 (the first three editions of the GC). She also said it in 1888/9 in response to claims she said it had. In 1894 she dismissed a man’s claim that it had.

T: My main point is that this isn't the case. It's the person's *character* that determines their destiny. The investigation in the IJ *recognizes* the reality of each person's character, as it is examined. It doesn't change or impact or fix their character in any way.

M:Our two main points are complimentary. I do not see where they are contradictory. You wrote “as it is examined” whereas I’m talking about the end product, namely, an irreversibly fixed destiny.

T: It's an evaluation that's absolutely necessary. The beings who benefit by the evaluation can't read God's mind. It's not for God's benefit.

M:You wrote, “It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case.” If so, then it wouldn’t require reading God’s mind, right?

Wouldn’t it be evident to the onlooking universe?

Here's an analogy. A student takes a test in a school course. The teacher evaluates the test. The instant the exam is graded doesn't really matter. What matters is the exam itself, what answers the student made.

M:It does matter when cases are judged, numbered, and sealed because there are events awaiting its completion before they can begin to unfold. For example, people cannot join other numbered and sealed saints in proclaiming the loud cry of the third angel under latter rain power before they are numbered and sealed.

M:I agree. To clarify, though, it doesn’t look as though we are in agreement as to when Jesus begins examining cases as they relate to the state described in Rev 22:11. IOW, I believe Jesus begins examining their case after they reach this state; whereas, I hear you saying it begins before they reach it. Is that correct?

Are you suggesting Jesus examines all the cases of the living at the same time during a measuring time before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11? If so, what changed when the Father and the Son moved from the HP to the MHP? Hasn’t such a measuring process been going since the Fall of A&E?

5T 472-476 seems to suggest they will know it the instant it happens. Here it is:

Of course, I think these insights must be considered in light of what happens when God blots out our record and memory of sin.

It seems unlikely to me that something so radical, so life changing could happen without noticing it right away, the instant it happens. It would be a telltale sign that they are numbered and sealed. I realize you interpret this point the opposite of how I do. That is, you believe we will continue to remember the details of our sins throughout eternity, that not being able to recall or remember them is symbolic of God not holding them against us or anyone else, ourselves included.

This sounds very personal to me. “Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected.” “Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.”

T:You say, "Unless it's genuinely heartfelt, and not robotic" Do you really think it's possible to say something 10 trillion times and not be robotic? (I sure hope you don't answer this "yes").

M:I tend to agree with you; however, we are talking about heaven, and things are very much different there than it is here.

So, I can’t say for sure no one in heaven will continually repeat those few words. Most likely not. But who are we to say so?

I agree that the measuring process runs concurrently with the judging, numbering, and sealing process. I also happen to think the measuring process has been going on since the Fall of A&E, and that it will not end until everyone alive has decided for or against the seal of God during the MOB crisis. However, as mentioned above, I do not believe the IJL begins for an individual before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11.

M: You wrote, “I don't think it's so much God's allowing things to play out as they didn't play out because they didn't happen.” Doesn’t this assume the Holy Spirit and holy angels were inactive, that they weren’t doing anything?

T: No, it doesn't. They were active in preparing hearts and giving truth, but the truth was not received, and the same problem (the same truth!) exists to this day.

M: Below you wrote, “The latter rain had begun to fall . . .” Didn’t God pull the plug (or put it back in place) on the latter rain?

T: What happened was God sent the latter rain by means of a message, presented by His messengers, Jones and Waggoner. Ellen White jumped on board, and the three of them preached a bit. The GC, opposing this message (large majority, a few exceptions) split up the 3, and the message was quashed. So it's not that "God pulled the plug" but we did! Makes it rather ironic of us to be praying for God to send the latter rain, doesn't it? It's like the Jews praying for the Messiah to come.

M: Also, there are other events which depend on God being proactive. Above I wrote, “The shaking, the loud cry of the latter rain, the MOB crisis, the IJL, the close of probation, the great time of trouble – all follow a definite sequence. One follows the other in space and time.” Because man failed to follow through with his part, God was unable to continue doing His part. Nothing can progress further than God’s part. Nor will God progress further if man doesn’t do his part.

T: God doesn't act unilaterally. The reason Christ hasn't come has nothing to do with God. We're in agreement on this point?

M: Not only did she say the IJ hadn’t progressed to include the cases of the living in 1911, she also confirmed it 1858, 1884 and 1888 (the first three editions of the GC). She also said it in 1888/9 in response to claims she said it had. In 1894 she dismissed a man’s claim that it had.

T: I'd be interested in seeing the 1894 reference.

Last night a young man, a stranger to us all, but professing to be a brother from Victoria [Australia], called upon us and asked to see Sister White. It was evening and I declined seeing him. We invited him to remain with us during the night, however, and to take breakfast. After our usual morning worship, as we were about to go to our various employments, this young man arose and with a commanding gesture requested us to sit down. He said, "Have you any hymnbooks? We will sing a hymn, then I have a message to give you." I said, "If you have a message, give it without delay, for we are very much pressed to get off the American mail and have no time to lose." He then began to read something he had written, which stated among other things that the judgment has now begun upon the living. . . . {LDE 21.1}

I listened as he went on and finally said, "My brother, you are not exactly in your right mind. State plainly how your message concerns us. Please let us know at once. Your mind is overstrained, you misapprehend your work. Much that you have said is in accordance with the Bible, and we believe every word of that. But you are overexcited. Please state what you have for us." {LDE 21.2}

Well, he said that we must pack up and move at once to Battle Creek. I asked his reasons, and he responded, "To give this message that the judgment has begun upon the living." I answered him, "The work which the Lord has given us to do is not yet finished. When our work here is completed we are sure the Lord will let us know that it is time for us to move to Battle Creek, instead of teaching you our duty." . . . I left him for Brother Starr to talk with further while I resumed my writing. {LDE 21.3}

He told Brother Starr that when Sister White spoke to him so kindly, and yet with such authority, he began to see that he had made a mistake, that the impressions which had moved him so strongly were not consistent or reasonable. Although our family is large, consisting of ten members, besides three visitors, we decided to have this young man stay with us for a time. We dare not have him go with people who will treat him harshly and condemn him, neither do we want him to repeat his "revelations." We will have him remain for a little time where we can associate with him and if possible lead him in safe, sure paths.--Letter 66, 1894. {LDE 22.1}

T: My main point is that this isn't the case. It's the person's *character* that determines their destiny. The investigation in the IJ *recognizes* the reality of each person's character, as it is examined. It doesn't change or impact or fix their character in any way.

M: Our two main points are complimentary. I do not see where they are contradictory. You wrote “as it is examined” whereas I’m talking about the end product, namely, an irreversibly fixed destiny.

T: It's one thing or the other. Either people fix their own destinies, and the IJ recognizes this reality, or the IJ plays some part in fixing peoples destinies, like bubble-wrapping them in some way, I guess.

T: It's an evaluation that's absolutely necessary. The beings who benefit by the evaluation can't read God's mind. It's not for God's benefit.

M: You wrote, “It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case.” If so, then it wouldn’t require reading God’s mind, right? Wouldn’t it be evident to the onlooking universe? On a different note, I don’t think Jesus examines cases before they are ready, before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11.

T: No. Why would it? The onlookers would be looking at the evidence presented. In which case there's no need to read God's mind, right? So why are you asking if God's mind would need to be read?

M: . . . , that is, I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided.

T: Waits for what?

M: To number and seal them the exact instant each case is decided (as opposed to waiting and doing it for everyone at the same when the last case is decided).

T: What Mark is suggesting, if I'm understanding him correctly, is that there's a measuring process that involves each one. When that process is finished, then the final stage occurs, where a final decision is rendered for each one.

The exact instant a case is decided doesn't really matter. What matters is that the people who are being evaluated have made their final decision for Christ, to follow the lamb wherever He goes. It's not the evaluation that drives things, but the characters which have been formed.

Here's an analogy. A student takes a test in a school course. The teacher evaluates the test. The instant the exam is graded doesn't really matter. What matters is the exam itself, what answers the student made.

M: It does matter when cases are judged, numbered, and sealed because there are events awaiting its completion before they can begin to unfold. For example, people cannot join other numbered and sealed saints in proclaiming the loud cry of the third angel under latter rain power before they are numbered and sealed. The message swells to a loud cry as more and more numbered and sealed saints unite in proclaiming it. Ellen White wrote:

The third angel's message is to be sounded by God's people. It is to swell to the loud cry.--Lt 83, 1896. {PM 389.5}

As the third message swells to a loud cry and as great power and glory attend the closing work, the faithful people of God will partake of that glory. It is the latter rain which revives and strengthens them to pass through the time of trouble.--7BC 984 (1862). {LDE 201.1}

T: ? What other numbered and sealed saints are you talking about? The sealing process is a process of settling into truth. The seal of God recognizes this, like a seal one puts on a product, to signify that it's been examined and found to be OK. If the people have not been settled into the truth, they cannot be settled, but what stops the process is not their not having a seal applied to them, but not being settled into the truth. Once people are settled into the truth, they are sealed.

M: I agree. To clarify, though, it doesn’t look as though we are in agreement as to when Jesus begins examining cases as they relate to the state described in Rev 22:11. IOW, I believe Jesus begins examining their case after they reach this state; whereas, I hear you saying it begins before they reach it. Is that correct?

T: I said I thought that was possible.

M: Are you suggesting Jesus examines all the cases of the living at the same time during a measuring time before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11? If so, what changed when the Father and the Son moved from the HP to the MHP? Hasn’t such a measuring process been going since the Fall of A&E?

T: There's obviously some confusion here, but I don't know what it is, so I can't respond other than to say I don't understand why you're asking these questions and, no, such a measuring process hasn't been going on since the Fall.

M: 5T 472-476 seems to suggest they will know it the instant it happens. Here it is:

T: You quoted like 10 paragraphs. Please quote the specific thing which makes you think this, or underline it, or something, so I have some clue as to what you're thinking of.

M: Of course, I think these insights must be considered in light of what happens when God blots out our record and memory of sin.

T: God doesn't blot out our memory of sin. That wouldn't be possible without causing brain damage to us. The 144,000 can't bring to mind sins to confess because they don't have any sins to confess, not because their memories are faulty.

If giving people amnesia fixed anything, God could have just zapped everybody at once, and fixed the sin problem. But the sin problem is one of character, and can't be fixed by having a bad memory.

M: It seems unlikely to me that something so radical, so life changing could happen without noticing it right away, the instant it happens. It would be a telltale sign that they are numbered and sealed. I realize you interpret this point the opposite of how I do. That is, you believe we will continue to remember the details of our sins throughout eternity, that not being able to recall or remember them is symbolic of God not holding them against us or anyone else, ourselves included.

T: I mostly think you're interpreting what she said funny. When she said they can't bring to mind any particular sins, there's a context for that, which has to do with having unconfessed sins.

M: This sounds very personal to me. “Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected.” “Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.”

T: Of course it's personal. Just not sequential.

T: You say, "Unless it's genuinely heartfelt, and not robotic" Do you really think it's possible to say something 10 trillion times and not be robotic? (I sure hope you don't answer this "yes").

M: I tend to agree with you; however, we are talking about heaven, and things are very much different there than it is here. So, I can’t say for sure no one in heaven will continually repeat those few words. Most likely not. But who are we to say so?

T: God is going to set His headquarters here on the new earth. This will become heaven, in that sense. Why would the location make any difference? It's a matter of what a being is doing (repeating something over and over again). I'm glad you tend to agree with me on this. It's pretty obvious, isn't it? Why would Jesus Christ take issue with people saying vain repetitions if there were, at that very moment, beings in heaven doing this very thing?

M: I agree that the measuring process runs concurrently with the judging, numbering, and sealing process. I also happen to think the measuring process has been going on since the Fall of A&E, and that it will not end until everyone alive has decided for or against the seal of God during the MOB crisis. However, as mentioned above, I do not believe the IJL begins for an individual before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11.

T: Revelation speaks of a measuring process, the measuring of the temple. You think this has in mind the activity going on since the fall?

The periods here mentioned--"forty and two months," and "a thousand two hundred and threescore days"--are the same, alike representing the time in which the church of Christ was to suffer oppression from Rome. The 1260 years of papal supremacy began in A.D. 538, and would therefore terminate in 1798. {GC 266.3}

The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. . . . {7BC 972.1}

Here is the work going on, measuring the temple and its worshipers to see who will stand in the last day. Those who stand fast shall have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. When we are doing our work remember there is One that is watching the spirit in which we are doing it. Shall we not bring the Saviour into our everyday lives, into our secular work and domestic duties? Then in the name of God we want to leave behind everything that is not necessary, all gossiping or unprofitable visiting, and present ourselves as servants of the living God (MS 4, 1888). {7BC 972.2}

T: I don't think this is necessarily the case. After all, John himself, who wrote Revelation, prayed, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."

M: Was John praying the same kind of prayer recorded in Rev 14:15-20? That is, did he believe that the time was right, that probation had closed, that Jesus had stood up and pronounced, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still”? I don’t think that’s what he had in mind when he wrote, "Even so, come Lord Jesus." Do you? ....

The prayers of Rev 14:15-20, as I understand it, are specifically telling Jesus to reap the saved and unsaved because everyone has refused or received the seal of God during the MOB crisis. Please note that these two prayers follow the 3AMs, which describe events unfolding during the MOB crisis.

T: I think Revelation expresses the general desire that Jesus Christ return and receive His reward as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

M: What do you think the following prayer symbolizes: “Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.” Will they know it will result in Jesus doing the following: “And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

T: What I said before.

M: You wrote, “It seems to me possible that there would be some individuals whose character is such that the Lord knows they would pass the final test.” Are you suggesting He would judge, number, and seal such people before the MOB crisis begins?

T: No. I don't think it's sequential like this.

M:You wrote, “So it's not that "God pulled the plug" but we did!” I’m not sure this accurately describes what happened. The trio continued working, doing what they were doing.

M:It was heaven that decided to pull out because the message wasn’t being received which resulted in the LR ending.

T: I'd be interested in seeing the 1894 reference.

M:I posted it above. Here it is again:

You wrote, “[P]eople fix their own destinies, and the IJ recognizes this reality . . .” I agree with this. I was pointing out the difference between “as” (you) and “when” (me). Significant things happen when Jesus finishes examining their case – 1) He blots out their record and memory of specific sins,

2) He retains their name in the book of life,

and 3) He irreversibly fixes their destiny.

The prophecy of Noah was no arbitrary denunciation of wrath or declaration of favor. It did not fix the character and destiny of his sons. But it showed what would be the result of the course of life they had severally chosen and the character they had developed. (CT 67)

The great change is to be made by Satan and his evil angels, united with evil men who will fix their destiny by making void the law of God in the face of convincing evidence from His Word that it is unchangeable and eternal. (3SM 389)

M: You wrote, “It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case.” If so, then it wouldn’t require reading God’s mind, right? Wouldn’t it be evident to the onlooking universe? On a different note, I don’t think Jesus examines cases before they are ready, before they reach the state described in Rev 22:11.

T: No. Why would it? The onlookers would be looking at the evidence presented. In which case there's no need to read God's mind, right? So why are you asking if God's mind would need to be read?

M:Are you suggesting they will have had no knowledge of said evidence before their case comes up for examination, that the first they will know about it is when they see it presented during judgment?

MM:You wrote, “It could have been decided before Jesus finished examining their case.” I think the angels are well aware of what’s unfolding on earth. “The holy inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the events taking place on the earth. . . The whole universe is watching with inexpressible interest the closing scenes of the great controversy between good and evil. . . Our little world is the lesson book of the universe.” {LDE 30} I believe this explains why they will know it before it comes up for review. They are well aware of the facts, the lives lived, the choices made, the outcomes of their choices, etc. What they will not know beforehand is God’s verdict. They will have to wait until judgment to learn that. True, they are probably good at guessing God’s verdict before it is handed down.

T: ? What other numbered and sealed saints are you talking about? The sealing process is a process of settling into truth. The seal of God recognizes this, like a seal one puts on a product, to signify that it's been examined and found to be OK. If the people have not been settled into the truth, they cannot be settled, but what stops the process is not their not having a seal applied to them, but not being settled into the truth. Once people are settled into the truth, they are sealed.

MM:We seem to be talking about two different aspects of salvation. You’re talking about sanctification (the development of characters), whereas I’m talking about judgment (the examination of developed characters).

MM:You’re talking about the process, whereas I’m talking about the examination of the finished product.

Here's an analogy. A student takes a test in a school course. The teacher evaluates the test. The instant the exam is graded doesn't really matter. What matters is the exam itself, what answers the student made.

I started this particular volley with, “I do not believe He waits until after the last case is decided.” And then qualified it by adding, “To number and seal them the exact instant each case is decided (as opposed to waiting and doing it for everyone at the same when the last case is decided).”

You responded by saying, “The exact instant a case is decided doesn't really matter.” Well, I think it does because subsequent events cannot begin unfolding until it happens, and if Jesus waited to do it until after the last case is decided certain events would unfold, namely, the latter rain swelling to a loud cry.

T: I said I thought that was possible.

M:Do you have inspired statements that say so? If not, why do you think it was or will be possible? This is a point I’ve been trying to understand.

MM:Let’s try this again. 1. Are you suggesting Jesus “measures” all the cases of the living at the same time?

2. If so, when did it begin?

3. As you see it, what is the difference between “measuring” and “examination” as it relates to the IJL?

4. What changed when the Father and the Son moved into the MHP in 1844 as it relates to the IJL?

M:How is the “measuring” you speak of different for those living before and after 1844?

M:I think you might be undervaluing the prophecy recorded Rev 14:15-20.

M:Please take a closer look at it, especially in light of what we’ve been talking about here. I think it is very relevant. It speaks to the question of whether or not they will know when they are numbered and sealed and will be translated alive.

T: No. I don't think it's sequential like this.

M:I asked, “Are you suggesting He would judge, number, and seal such people before the MOB crisis begins?” I don’t understand your reply.