Yeah, the word "sinning" wasn't the best choice. That's why I switched to "sinful habit". The second quote above says unbelievers can indeed give up certain sinful habits (cold turkey or otherwise) without the renewing power of God. Is that how you see it?

I didn't mean to criticize the smoker's account of how she gradually gave up dope and cigarettes. I'm sorry if anything I posted sounded like I was attacking her personally. I can assure you that when she told me her story that my response did not make her feel slighted, attacked, or criticized. BTW, I said something like, Thank you for sharing your story with me. I am very glad you have kicked the habit.


I'm don't think I understand what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying since willpower is the gift of God, any unbeliever that uses it to give up a sinful habit (cold turkey or otherwise) is doing so by the power of God whether they know it or not.

However, the part I underlined above seems to suggest quite the opposite, namely, that they can use their God-given gift (willpower) to give up certain sinful habits without relying on the power of God. If so, is it correct to say they quit sinning (regarding that specific sin)? If not, why not?


Amen! Proud people can seem very Christlike. Again, how is this possible? That is, how can someone take sinful pride and use it to do things that resemble Jesus?


During the final hours of earth's history, the Sabbath will be the focal point. Those who keep it will receive the seal of God; whereas, those who choose not to keep it will receive the mark of the beast. I suspect the "counterfeit" "revival of primitive godliness", which is yet to come, will make it appear as though they are as much like Jesus as those who receive the seal of God. That is, they will seem very kind and loving and compassionate, etc. The truth, of course, will be very much different, but it will not be evident to all.

Teresaq, the DA 324 quote you posted above is one of my favorite passages. What do you make of the SC 58 quote below? It says unbelievers can give up sinful habits without the renewing power of God.

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

my brother, this is the last time i will tell you that i am not going to sit in judgment of that woman. Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

you are free to decide for yourself how others should get deliverance but i do not feel qualified. if you feel that what happened in her life does not match how it should be, ok. you have that right.

now please allow others to have a different understanding.

Sigh! I'm not asking you to pass judgment on the woman who gave God the credit for empowering her to spend several years gradually quitting smoking dope and cigarettes. Nor am I asking you, at least not in my last post, to say whether or not God promises to help people overcome their sinful habits in this manner.

Ellen White wrote - "It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

According to this passage, I think it is clear that unbelievers can rid themselves of certain sinful habits (cold turkey or otherwise) without the renewing power of Christ. Do you agree? Please understand that I do not have some underhanded reason for asking you this question. I'm not out to trick you. I am not going to corner you and then push some personal agenda. Please believe me.

To be in a condition such that it is safe to stand in God's presence without Christ's covering blood. Jesus could do it, but none else.


All of us have the taint and corruption of sin. If we say we do not, we lie.


I take those to mean that we can have some aspects of Adam's pre-fall sinlessness, but not every aspect. IOW, we will not become pre-fall humans, no matter how converted we are. Such a state is reserved for the 2nd Coming. Until then, we will still have some post-fall aspects.

Don't forget the other quotes about those who have been transformed clearly see their moral defects.

Not even the 144,000 after probation closes? They still have sinful flesh. "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor." {GC 614.1} Also, this:

So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}


Yes, "all have sinned", to say otherwise is a lie. Do you think believers can reach a point in this lifetime where they cease to sin? Or, do you think they will continue to sin until the day Jesus returns and changes them? Also, are you implying we incur guilt and condemnation in judgment based on the sinful flesh nature we inherited at birth?


I agree we cannot, in this lifetime, change our flesh nature back to the sinlessness condition of Adam before the Fall. Although the Gnostics of John's time disagreed. He fought their notion that we are naturally sinless beings. Which aspect of Adam's pre-fall sinlessness do you believe is attainable in this lifetime? And, do you believe it is a criteria for everyone who hopes to be admitted to heaven?


Good point. What do you think? Is it a sin to have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections? Or, do you believe as I do that it is a sin to sin, that having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not a sin so long as, in Christ, we rein them in, that is, subdue them and subject them to a sanctified reason and conscience?

Ellen White put it this way:


You seem to be suggesting that the fact we have to work, in Christ, to keep all such sinful clamorings under the control of a sanctified mind and will is evidence we are guilty of sinning in the sight of God. Have I misunderstood your point?

This too:

The sin of evilspeaking begins with the cherishing of evil thoughts. Guile includes impurity in all its forms. An impure thought tolerated, an unholy desire cherished, and the soul is contaminated, its integrity compromised. "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." If we would not commit sin, we must shun its very beginnings. Every emotion and desire must be held in subjection to reason and conscience. Every unholy thought must be instantly repelled. To your closet, followers of Christ. Pray in faith and with all the heart. Satan is watching to ensnare your feet. You must have help from above if you would escape his devices. {5T 177.1}

By faith and prayer all may meet the requirements of the gospel. No man can be forced to transgress. His own consent must be first gained; the soul must purpose the sinful act before passion can dominate over reason or iniquity triumph over conscience. Temptation, however strong, is never an excuse for sin. "The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers." Cry unto the Lord, tempted soul. Cast yourself, helpless, unworthy, upon Jesus, and claim His very promise. The Lord will hear. He knows how strong are the inclinations of the natural heart, and He will help in every time of temptation. {5T 177.2}

Regarding #116885, my point was that if a person stops sinning, it's only by the grace of God that this is possible. Some people are able to achieve a certain level of behavior by willpower, but outward "righteousness" is not the same thing as being born again, which involves a transformation of the the heart.

Arnold, it sounds like you are using the word "sinlessness" differently than Ellen White did. Do you see this?

I'm not saying this is a problem. People use words differently; that's natural. I'm just asking if you recognize that you're saying something different than Ellen White did, in reference to how you're using the word "sinlessness."

Amen! But what is it called when people give up certain sinful habits without the renewing power of God? I agree we cannot say they have stopped "sinning". But what it is called?