EGW: Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi. {PP 324.2}

t: i wonder if the fact that sometimes God Himself took action, while other times He "ordered" execution have anything to study into.

M: I think it does. And I have been diligently trying to pursue it with Tom. But he seems unwilling to concede that God has ever taken action Himself.

t: it seems to me that tom does see God as taking action, just not the way you see God taking action. but either way you misunderstood the intent of the question and i dont believe i would be able to explain it to you.

M: He seems to believe, ...that God has commanded or ordered... as well as ungodly, humans to cause death and destruction.

t: do you really believe this? or is it just an unfortunate mistake in phrasing?

M: Tom, I do not understand how you are applying what Campbell wrote about God deciding to direct the COI in their desire to dispossess Canaan militarily and what Ellen White wrote below:

Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi. {PP 324.2}

t: i can see it as a possibility. we know that people in the church are all at different stages, or places, in their lives, their walk. they more we study and learn, if we are studying the bible/sop, the more we learn and change.

I believe what I wrote the way I wrote it. "He seems to believe, although I'm sure that he does, that God has commanded or ordered holy angels and godly, as well as ungodly, humans to cause death and destruction." What are you questioning?

M: Tom, I do not understand how you are applying what Campbell wrote about God deciding to direct the COI in their desire to dispossess Canaan militarily and what Ellen White wrote below:

Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi. {PP 324.2}

t: i can see it as a possibility. we know that people in the church are all at different stages, or places, in their lives, their walk. they more we study and learn, if we are studying the bible/sop, the more we learn and change.

I don't understand your comment. Are you saying, yes, it is possible that Campbell's ideas explain the insights Ellen White articulated in PP 324?

Do you agree with the ideas Campbell describes in Chapter 9 of the online book Tom linked? He said that God set aside His ideal will and decided to direct the COI in their desire to dispossess Canaan militarily. If so, do you think God directed them in how to transgress His law? If not, why not?

t: do you really believe this? or is it just an unfortunate mistake in phrasing?

M: I believe what I wrote the way I wrote it. "He seems to believe, although I'm sure that he does, that God has commanded or ordered holy angels and godly, as well as ungodly, humans to cause death and destruction." What are you questioning?

t: you believe that God commands unholy men to cause death and destruction?

M: Tom, I do not understand how you are applying what Campbell wrote about God deciding to direct the COI in their desire to dispossess Canaan militarily and what Ellen White wrote below:

Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi. {PP 324.2}

t: i can see it as a possibility. we know that people in the church are all at different stages, or places, in their lives, their walk. they more we study and learn, if we are studying the bible/sop, the more we learn and change.

M: I don't understand your comment. Are you saying, yes, it is possible that Campbell's ideas explain the insights Ellen White articulated in PP 324?

Do you agree with the ideas Campbell describes in Chapter 9 of the online book Tom linked? He said that God set aside His ideal will and decided to direct the COI in their desire to dispossess Canaan militarily. If so, do you think God directed them in how to transgress His law? If not, why not?

t: i cant answer your questions as stated because they dont relate to what has been said.

t: i can say that i came across the 7 seven stages of spiritual maturity when it first appeared in 2000. while at first i held off judgment as to whether it had any legitimacy, i have to say that when i first gave my life to God i was at stage one, below stage 1 if that is possible due to the dysfunctional family and church i came from. if the stages are legitimate, and i am coming to believe they are since being on these forums, i am still not very high. the 7th stage is being like Christ and behaving at all times as He did.

God makes no compromise with sin. A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. (6BC 111)

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God’s word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. (COL 99, 100)

There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. (COL 99, 100)

There are those who believe in Christ; they do not think Him an impostor; they believe the Bible to be a revelation of His divine character. They admire its holy doctrines, and revere the name, the only name given under heaven whereby men can be saved, and yet, with all this knowledge, they may be as truly ignorant of the grace of God as the veriest sinner. They have not opened the heart to let Jesus in. (TMK 307)

Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. (OHC 336)

The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. (GC 468)

The uncertain experience of many professed Christians, sinning and repenting and continuing in the same dwarfed spiritual condition, is the result of worldliness and unholiness of life. The saving grace of Christ is designed for everyday life. Christ came not to save man in his sins, but from his sins. (UL 22)

Unless those who receive the truth are thoroughly converted and there is a radical change in their life and character, the soul is not riveted to the eternal Rock; and after the labor of the minister ceases, and the novelty is gone, the impression soon wears away, the truth loses its power to charm, and they exert no holier influence, and are no better for their profession of the truth. (4T 398)

The converted soul has a hatred of sin; he does not indulge in self-complacency, self-love, self-sufficiency, nor pass on day after day, claiming to be a Christian, and yet bringing dishonor upon Christ by misrepresenting him in character. Those who make this mistake, and pass on filled with self-righteousness, have not in reality made the first step heavenward. The first step toward heaven is conviction of sin, the second is repentance and obedience. True piety never exalts self. (RH 9-17-1895)

t: do you reject the possiblity of campbell being correct?

Yes. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

No. I think it is clear that God would have driven the Canaanites out of the Promised Land had the COI been faithful and obedient. However, I do not believe God compromised with sin when He directed the COI in their desire to slaughter the inhabitants of Canaan. IOW, I do not believe it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily. I don't know what you believe about it.

t: you believe that God commands unholy men to cause death and destruction?

M: Yes. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

t: ok. how do you see God commanding unholy men? does He come down and tell them to do it? that is why i was asking if it was an unfortunate mistake in phrasing?

t: do you reject the possiblity of campbell being correct?

M: No. I think it is clear that God would have driven the Canaanites out of the Promised Land had the COI been faithful and obedient. However, I do not believe God compromised with sin when He directed the COI in their desire to slaughter the inhabitants of Canaan. IOW, I do not believe it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily. I don't know what you believe about it.

t: i believe slavery and multiple wives, etc., are a heinous sin in the sight of God.

t: i also believe that because we live on this planet and know little else than sin, that we do not view sin in the same light that God does.

t: you believe that God commands unholy men to cause death and destruction?

MM:Yes.

Every disciple of Christ is to step into the ranks and carry forward the same work, knowing that its foes can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. God means that truth shall be brought to the front and become the subject of examination and discussion, even through the contempt placed upon it. The minds of the people must be agitated; every controversy, every reproach, every effort to restrict liberty of conscience, is God's means of awakening minds that otherwise might slumber.(MB 33)

MM:Why, then, do you think God directed the COI in the practice of such heinous sins as slavery, polygamy, etc? Also, do you think it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily? I still don't know what you believe about it.

He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives."(Matt. 19:8)

Can you explain how God uses "His enemies as instruments to punish" sinners? I suspect He employs legitimate methods which do not violate their freedoms. ...