I wish to point out once again the importance of proper diligence when developing doctrines from the Bible or from Mrs. White.

My cry has been, Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible, so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. . . . . {9MR 217.2}

God's servants are amenable to him. No man is to be conscience for them. {SpTA09 36.2}

Jesus seemed to lose sight of the nearer view as He saw what was to come upon the world. He looked into the future, and saw that the world would despise His warnings and reproofs. "The brother shall deliver up the brother to death," He said, "and the father the child; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Satan was the instigator of all this cruelty. He worked to put to death those who were determined to serve God, according to the light they had received, and according to the dictates of their own conscience. Satan tries to force men even in their worship of God to carry out his ideas. Christ has given no example for this kind of work. He draws men, but He never drives them. "My sheep hear My voice," He says, "and they follow Me." Mrs. E. G. White.

If it is possible, there should be chosen to fill the responsible positions in a conference, men who will not lead others to depend upon them, but who will lead all to make (503) the life of Christ their study, and their pattern. Christ ever manifested a heavenly courtesy in dealing with human souls. His life was a life of constant self-denial and self-sacrifice. Those who are numbered with the overcomers will be those who have practised the virtues of Christ. My heart has been made sick and sore when I have seen the example set by those who have loved to dictate and control; and I have said, If this wrong continues in spite of the warnings that have been given, I shall have no courage regarding their meeting successfully the great conflict that is before us.

No ruling power, that would compel man to obey the dictates of the finite mind, should be exercised. "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils," the Lord commands. By turning the minds of men to lean on human wisdom, we place a veil between God and man, so that there is not a seeing of Him who is invisible. {SpTB10 19.1}

Tom, I was thinking about what you said about the forces of nature. You seem to think God must work supernaturally to arbitrarily prevent the forces of nature from causing universal devastation and mass extinction. This idea, however, seems to assume that the forces of nature are self-acting, that they would behave a certain, predictable way if God did not intervene and prevent it.

However, based on what I've read, it is clear to me that the forces of nature are totally dependent on God, that nothing in nature is self-acting or capable of doing anything independent of God. Whatever happens in nature happens because God makes it happen. ...
Nothing is self-acting. Every atom, every molecule in nature behaves the way they do because God makes them behave that way. This is true of natural disasters as well as when the forces of nature function normally. For example, the Flood was not the result of God letting go and allowing the forces of nature to wreak havoc. The forces of nature do not possess the ability to do anything on their own. They are totally dependent on God to function normally and sustain life or to function abnormally and destroy life.

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them.

Now, regarding the part about God having the power to relieve them. Yes, of course, God has the power to relieve them. The story of the three Hebrew worthies comes to mind. ...

now we are walking on shaky ground.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15, KJV)

In order to sustain erroneous doctrines or unchristian practices, some will seize upon passages of Scripture separated from the context, perhaps quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite. With the cunning of the serpent they entrench themselves behind disconnected utterances construed to suit their carnal desires. Thus do many willfully pervert the word of God. Others, who have an active imagination, seize upon the figures and symbols of Holy Writ, interpret them to suit their fancy, with little regard to the testimony of Scripture as its own interpreter, and then they present their vagaries as the teachings of the Bible. {GC 521.1}
[The Great Controversy (1911)]

did God create hurricanes, cyclones, etc.?

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah, and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {CH 460.2}
While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "The haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {CH 461.1}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

M: Now, regarding the part about God having the "power to relieve them". Yes, of course, God has the power to relieve them. The story of the three Hebrew worthies comes to mind. God worked to overrule the natural cause and effect consequences of being tossed alive in the midst of a burning, fiery furnace. But when God takes it upon Himself to "inflict punishment", He does not work to prevent the natural cause and effect consequences. Ellen White put it this way:

t: yes!, exactly! God did not throw the hebrews in the furnace of fire.

MM:I believe King Neb attempted to use force and violence to motivate people to comply with his whims and wishes. Stalin and Hitler resorted to similar tactics. God, however, has never employed force or violence to compel or coerce people to comply with His laws.

King Neb attempted to use force and violence to motivate people to comply with his will. Stalin and Hitler resorted to similar tactics. God, however, has never employed force or violence to compel or coerce people to comply with His will.

Tom:This sounds like saying the end justifies the means. It's OK to do use violence and force as long as one's motives are OK. What does one do with statements such as the following?

EGW:
Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order.(DA 759)

Tom:I don't see how this can be true given what you're suggesting. It seems to me this would have to say instead something like "Often compelling power is found only under Satan's government. Often the Lord's principles are not of this order."

To me, if the Lord's principles are not of this order, that means He doesn't do these things, nor would He command His holy angels to do these things. Otherwise, what does the statement mean?

Tom,

You have been working under a misunderstanding of the concept of "compel."

to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure

M:We do not "compel" someone to die. We kill them. Now, we might "compel" someone to act against his or her will. That is what "compel" means.

David did not compel Goliath to hurl mocking insults at God. Nor did God do this. However, Goliath's mocking compelled God to act...for His honor.

Here is what it means to compel:

compel: To force, constrain or coerce; To exact or produce by force; To overpower; to subdue

GC:God does not force our will.

He does not take our will from us by force.

He never removes from us the freedom of choice which He has given us and guarded for us at the cost of Jesus' life. Following the proper definition of "compel," which is a word tied to our freedom of choice, I can fully agree that God does not do this.

However, following an improper definition of "compel," any number of accusations could be aimed at God for doing just this. For example, one might say that God compels or forces people against their will to:

--have no wings for flying
--stay in our solar system
--die instead of living forever
--have no gills for water sport
--be born blind
--endure the curse of thorns and thistles

etc.

God's plagues are not compelling anyone to choose anything against their wills. In fact, they are sent only to bring justice for the choices which have already been made by them.

GC:This statement never addresses other classes of people. Nor did Mrs. White put this statement into any of her major writings. This was a private letter, dealing most especially with a particular Mr. Stone who had recently deceased, sent to Uriah Smith and his wife.

"God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.