notice how gently the Lord can work!! absolutely amazing! then i guess He has to get stronger sometimes. and even sadder is when He has to give up, "let ephraim go". then He stops trying to convict us but lets us go the way we insist on going. we wonder at the jewish people in the days of Christ and the apostles.

thats an interesting perspective.

it seems quite a bit was said against them, by those in power with Jesus, from the way i read it. but both Jesus and paul knew they were in the right. they knew the charges were not trueaccording to the quote.

while there was a higher earthly authority that could be appealed to that doesnt always work, again with the example of Jesus.

a side issue worthy of its own topic.

im not sure if your quotes relate to mms questions. "turn the other cheek" would have to do with not retaliating when someone does a real or perceived wrong, i would think. i dont see it related to speaking up when wrongs are committed.

defending ourself can get touchy. i would think what is going on in our mind as we consider defending ourselves would probably be the key to whether we are doing right or not.

are we out to get the other person? are we caring more about our self-preservation than the salvation of the other person? are we out to stop them no matter what methods/tactics we have to use? do we feel any "tugging" of the Holy Spirit?

those are some questions that come to mind.

but ultimately, i wonder if we are willing to allow the Lord control of the situation even if it means our death?

do we see Jesus as weak for allowing others to mistreat Him almost from day 1? He was God. He came to show us how the Father is. would the Father "get even"?

I don't believe asserting one's rights is the right concept. What Christ was doing was speaking out in behalf of the truth. There was no self-interest involved, but "truth-interest."

To throw a monkey wrench into things, it's very easy for us to deceive ourselves, and think we are acting out of "righteousness indignation" or some appropriate principle, when really we're just acting out of self interest. The truth is important, but defending our self isn't.

Well I've certainly had some "righteous indignation" myself this week. Not for myself, but for the way some good friends of mine were treated.

I think it is appropriate to have "righteous indignation" in certain situations. In this case, it was a classic example of church politics at play. The two-faced leader who wished to boot these friends of mine from the institution came sweetly to them with a face of sympathy, promising to help them, if possible, to be able to stay. At the board meeting later, instead of bringing up the options this person had promised to raise in the meeting, this "leader" actually recommended against them, and in favor of a different plan which would mean my hapless friends would have just two days to exit the country, since they would no longer be able to renew their visas. This left them in a quandary, with countless things to pack, tickets to buy, paperwork to do, etc. on extremely short notice. These friends of mine have been very dedicated missionary workers here, and to my knowledge are the only ones in the institution having regular Bible studies with the non-Christian locals.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood...." But it hurts to have it come from our own side...."friendly fire" they call it?

If it's a sin to be "righteously indignant" over such unChristian, and unfair treatment of others, please pray for me, as this has hit me hard.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

even defending the truth can cause us to break the law, whether ignorantly or willfully. many times we can think we are defending the truth, when in reality we are merely defending our own particular understanding but dont know it.

i think defending a churchs stance on any position would also come into play here. blindly defending any churchs position without having studied out the issues involved..."the church teaches it and that settles it for me". the church has to be right....

we really havent learned any lessons from history. when we start defending the churchs position over studying for ourselves, well, that seems to me to make us just as papal as any papist.

speaking the truth, many times, upsets the status quo which brings out the defenders of the status quo.

those dark ages were bloody, as were the reformation years. what is the estimation of how many the papacy put to death? what about both sides of the reformation years?

which brings us back to turning the other cheek and not retaliating when wronged whether real or perceived.

green cochoa, i am very sorry for what is going on with your friends. i will keep the situation in prayer. may God do what is right for all involved.

Again, Jesus did everything on time, in a timely manner, according to the schedule mapped out for Him from eternity. He turned the other cheek when the time was right. But He also employed "His strange act" when the time was right. While here in the flesh, Jesus did not wield the sword. The time wasn't right. The "two phases of Christ's work,--as a suffering sacrifice and a conquering king" (DA 136) play out according to precise timing.

Ecclesiastes
3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated. are you saying there is a time to retaliate?

Were not a great many untrue things spoken concerning the Saviour, and did He retaliate? God wants us to stand in moral dignity, recommending the divine power that enables us to possess our souls in patience. {GCB, April 4, 1901 par. 19}

Every man who transgresses the law of God places himself on the wrong side. His nature changes, and he becomes evil. All such will assuredly oppress their fellow men. God's people will suffer persecution from those who, if they had the Spirit of the Master, would manifest the same pitying love. But they are moved by a power from beneath, and they teach for doctrine the commandments of men. They do battle against God in the person of his saints; but God would have us remember that we are not to retaliate under provocation. {RH, November 7, 1899 par. 19}

But there were some who sought his society, feeling at peace in his presence, because he never contended for his rights. Tho he loved his brethren, yet they hated him, and manifested the most decided unbelief and contempt. In his home life, where all should have been at peace, he was constantly confronted by envy and jealousy. His labors were made unnecessarily severe because he was willing and uncomplaining. He did not fail nor become discouraged. He lived above these difficulties, as if in the light of God's countenance. He did not retaliate when he was roughly used, but bore insult patiently, and in his human nature became an example for all children and youth. He endured the heat and the cold, the sun and the rain, of his native hills and valleys. {ST, August 6, 1896 par. 8}

If you are annoyed or threatened in the streets by quarrelsome boys, do not retaliate. It is truly noble to forgive and pass over a wrong; but it is mean and cowardly to revenge an injury. Let me entreat you to be above everything like engaging in a dispute, or speaking disrespectfully or sneeringly of those who annoy you, and do not respect themselves enough to behave properly. Such boys are to be pitied. They have but little happiness. {AY 65.1}

Who and What is our example? how Christ lived on this earth? or a, perhaps faulty, picture of the God of the universe?

If you are having trouble with the word "assert," you can express it in another way. I'm limited in this respect, as you know. But there is a fine balance between being meek and not surrendering one's rights.

To be meek is not to surrender our rights; but it is the preservation of self-control under provocation to give way to anger or to the spirit of retaliation. Meekness will not allow passion to take the lines. {ST, August 22, 1895 par. 3}

As I said, there must be a fine balance here. Being a people pleaser and a doormat for others is one extreme. Thinking that you are being persecuted if someone simply disagrees with you or sees things in a different light from you; or, drawing persecution upon yourself, is the other extreme. The key word is balance, and balance is found in unselfish meekness - not surrendering one's rights, but also not retaliating when under real persecution.

I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.