Why, then, do you think God directed the COI in the practice of such heinous sins as slavery, polygamy, etc?

Do you think living on this planet prevented Jesus from seeing sin in the same light as His Father?

t: you believe that God commands unholy men to cause death and destruction?

M: Yes. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

T: Do you mean like puppets? That is, God uses His enemies like puppets? I read statements like the one you quoted and understand them to mean that God uses the things which these people do to further His means. For example, here's a statement that brings out the same purpose:

An appreciation of the Lord's mercy will lead to an appreciation of those who, like Gideon, have been employed as instruments to bless His people. {PP 556.3}

The Lord used us as instruments to rebuke these fanatics, and to open the eyes of His faithful people to the true character of their work. {2SM 27.2}

Jesus would have His followers subject one to another; then God can use them as instruments to save one another; for one may not discern the dangers which another's eye is quick to perceive; but if the undiscerning will in confidence obey the warning, they may be saved great perplexities and trials. {3T 446.1}

God could have proclaimed His truth through sinless angels, but this is not His plan. He chooses human beings, men compassed with infirmity, as instruments in the working out of His designs. {AA 330.2}

So with His ministers. They are but instruments in His hands, and all the good they accomplish is done through His power. {AA 586.3}

While we yield ourselves as instruments for the Holy Spirit's working, the grace of God works in us to deny old inclinations, to overcome powerful propensities, and to form new habits. As we cherish and obey the promptings of the Spirit, our hearts are enlarged to receive more and more of His power, and to do more and better work. Dormant energies are aroused, and palsied faculties receive new life. {COL 353.1}

They listened to the preaching of the apostles, and the entrance of God's word into their hearts gave them understanding. They became agents of God's mercy, and instruments of His salvation. {DA 163.3}

Now, here is the very thing that we want to understand, that it is not our work but God's work, and we are only instruments in His hands to accomplish it. {Ev 631.2}

Nature is the servant of her Creator. God does not annul His laws, or work contrary to them; but He is continually using them as His instruments. {FLB 28.5}

While we yield ourselves as instruments for the Holy Spirit's working, the grace of God works in us to deny old inclinations, to overcome powerful propensities, and to form new habits. The Spirit of God, received into the soul, quickens all its faculties. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the mind that is devoted unreservedly to God, develops harmoniously, and is strengthened to comprehend and fulfill the requirements of God. The weak, vacillating character becomes changed to one of strength and steadfastness. {AG 194.4}

Men are instruments in the hand of God, employed by Him to accomplish His purposes of grace and mercy. {GC 343.2}

It is God's plan to employ humble instruments to accomplish great results. Then the glory will not be given to men, but to Him who works through them to will and to do of His own good pleasure. {GC 171.1}

The Holy Spirit is a free, working, independent agency. The God of heaven uses His Spirit as it pleases Him; and human minds, human judgment, and human methods can no more set boundaries to its working, or prescribe the channel through which it shall operate, than they can say to the wind, "I bid you to blow in a certain direction, and to conduct yourself in such and such a manner." {FLB 52.4}

From the beginning God has been working by His Holy Spirit through human instrumentalities for the accomplishment of His purpose in behalf of the fallen race. . . . The same power that sustained the patriarchs, that gave Caleb and Joshua faith and courage, and that made the work of the apostolic church effective, has upheld God's faithful children in every succeeding age. {FLB 52.5}

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God . . . To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. . . The inhabitants of Canaan had been granted ample opportunity for repentance. . . Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. {PP 491, 492}

And the leaders in Israel became instruments of Satan in warring against the Saviour. {DA 205.2}

Sometimes it will be in the person of learned, but more often of ignorant, men, whom Satan has trained to be successful instruments to deceive souls. {AA 169.1}

Many indulge freely in criticism and accusing. By giving expression to suspicion, jealousy, and discontent, they yield themselves as instruments to Satan. Before they realize what they are doing, the adversary has through them accomplished his purpose. {COL 340.3}

Satan finds willing instruments to do his work. He exercises a skill in this direction that has been perfected by years of experience. He uses the accumulated knowledge of ages in executing his malicious designs. Ignorant youth play themselves into the hands of Satan for him to use as instruments to lead souls to ruin. {4T 207.2}

M: Why, then, do you think God directed the COI in the practice of such heinous sins as slavery, polygamy, etc? Also, do you think it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily? I still don't know what you believe about it.

T: MM, I don't understand why you keep asking this question. It's been answered dozens of times, by many people on this forum, in the same way, by quoting what Jesus said: "He said to them, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives. (Matt. 19:8)

T: Regarding your question to me regarding what Campbell wrote, it seems to me that what she wrote directly applies, and I don't know how to explain it more clearly than she did.

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God . . . To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. . . The inhabitants of Canaan had been granted ample opportunity for repentance. . . Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. {PP 491, 492}

God never uses His power to oppress the creatures of His hand. He never requires more than man is able to perform; never punishes His disobedient children more than is necessary to bring them to repentance; or to deter others from following their example. Rebellion against God is inexcusable. {2BC 999.7}

In His dealings with the human race, God bears long with the impenitent. He uses His appointed agencies to call men to allegiance, and offers them His full pardon if they will repent. But because God is long-suffering, men presume on His mercy. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." The patience and long-suffering of God, which should soften and subdue the soul, has an altogether different influence upon the careless and sinful. It leads them to cast off restraint, and strengthens them in resistance. They think that the God who has borne so much from them will not heed their perversity. {3BC 1166.1}

If we lived in a dispensation of immediate retribution, offenses against God would not occur so often. But though delayed, the punishment is none the less certain. There are limits even to the forbearance of God. The boundary of His long-suffering may be reached, and then He will surely punish. And when He does take up the case of the presumptuous sinner, He will not cease till He has made a full end. {3BC 1166.1}

Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. But the cases of Miriam, Aaron, David, and many others show that it is not a safe thing to sin against God in deed, in word, or even in thought. God is a being of infinite love and compassion, but He also declares Himself to be a "consuming fire, even a jealous God" (RH Aug. 14, 1900). {3BC 1166.2}

t: do you reject the possiblity of campbell being correct?

M: No. I think it is clear that God would have driven the Canaanites out of the Promised Land had the COI been faithful and obedient. However, I do not believe God compromised with sin when He directed the COI in their desire to slaughter the inhabitants of Canaan. IOW, I do not believe it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily. I don't know what you believe about it.

t: i believe slavery and multiple wives, etc., are a heinous sin in the sight of God.

M: Why, then, do you think God directed the COI in the practice of such heinous sins as slavery, polygamy, etc?

t: again im just trying to understand your understanding.... do you see divorce and slavery as heinous sins in the sight of God?

t: i also believe that because we live on this planet and know little else than sin, that we do not view sin in the same light that God does.

M: Do you think living on this planet prevented Jesus from seeing sin in the same light as His Father?

t: are we born God-men as Jesus was?

Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts. {COL 314.4}

God gives us bodies, strength of brain, time and opportunity in which to work. It is required that all be put to the tax. With humanity and divinity combined you can accomplish a work as enduring as eternity. {FW 27.1}

He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure. {FW 71.1}

Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined. {AG 177.3}

Men may have a power to resist evil--a power that neither earth, nor death, nor hell can master; a power that will place them where they may overcome as Christ overcame. Divinity and humanity may be combined in them. {1SM 409.1}

It was to be impressed upon Israel that in the conquest of Canaan they were not to fight for themselves, but simply as instruments to execute the will of God . . . To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. . . The inhabitants of Canaan had been granted ample opportunity for repentance. . . Like the men before the Flood, the Canaanites lived only to blaspheme Heaven and defile the earth. And both love and justice demanded the prompt execution of these rebels against God and foes to man. {PP 491, 492}

I believe God gave Moses "judgments and laws" directing them in how to practice divorce and polygamy. Yes, there is an unlawful way to practice divorce and polygamy, and the laws of God forbid it. It is a heinous sin in the sight of God. Do you think it was a heinous sin in the sight of God when the COI practiced divorce and polygamy in accordance with the laws of God? I don't.

No, not like puppets. God works through the influence of His Holy Spirit to plant ideas and to motivate people to act them out.

T: Do you mean like puppets? That is, God uses His enemies like puppets? I read statements like the one you quoted and understand them to mean that God uses the things which these people do to further His means. For example, here's a statement that brings out the same purpose:

M:No, not like puppets. God works through the influence of His Holy Spirit to plant ideas and to motivate people to act them out.

M:You seem to think God uses the evil deeds of His enemies as "instruments" to punish sinners. Whereas I believe she is saying God uses "His enemies as instruments to punish" sinners.

While we yield ourselves as instruments for the Holy Spirit's working, the grace of God works in us to deny old inclinations, to overcome powerful propensities, and to form new habits. The Spirit of God, received into the soul, quickens all its faculties. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the mind that is devoted unreservedly to God, develops harmoniously, and is strengthened to comprehend and fulfill the requirements of God. The weak, vacillating character becomes changed to one of strength and steadfastness. {AG 194.4}

T: MM, I don't understand why you keep asking this question. It's been answered dozens of times, by many people on this forum, in the same way, by quoting what Jesus said: "He said to them, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives. (Matt. 19:8)

M:Yes, Jesus said the law of Moses permits divorce because their hearts are hard. But it doesn't answer my questions. And I don't know why you think it does. Did Jesus direct the COI in the practice of heinous sins?

T: Regarding your question to me regarding what Campbell wrote, it seems to me that what she wrote directly applies, and I don't know how to explain it more clearly than she did.

M:You're right, she clearly explains her point of view. There is no need for you to clarify it. However, her point of view does not address my questions.

M:BTW, I agree with her that God set aside His ideal will in order to direct the COI in their desire to employ weapons of war to slaughter the Canaanites and to occupy their land. What she didn't say was whether or not it was a sin to militarily dispossess the Canaanites. You have also not answered this question. I have no idea what you believe about it.

Tom, are you one of those who think "these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible"? Do you have a hard time thinking "they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness"?

t: do you reject the possiblity of campbell being correct?

M: No. I think it is clear that God would have driven the Canaanites out of the Promised Land had the COI been faithful and obedient. However, I do not believe God compromised with sin when He directed the COI in their desire to slaughter the inhabitants of Canaan. IOW, I do not believe it was a sin to conqueror Canaan militarily. I don't know what you believe about it.

t: i believe slavery and multiple wives, etc., are a heinous sin in the sight of God.

M: Why, then, do you think God directed the COI in the practice of such heinous sins as slavery, polygamy, etc?

t: again im just trying to understand your understanding.... do you see divorce and slavery as heinous sins in the sight of God?

M: I believe God gave Moses "judgments and laws" directing them in how to practice divorce and polygamy. Yes, there is an unlawful way to practice divorce and polygamy, and the laws of God forbid it. It is a heinous sin in the sight of God. Do you think it was a heinous sin in the sight of God when the COI practiced divorce and polygamy in accordance with the laws of God? I don't.

t: lets see if im understanding you here. as long as the israelites heeded the laws concerning slavery and divorce, etc., slavery and divorce were no longer heinous sins to God?

t: you believe that God commands unholy men to cause death and destruction?

M: Yes. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

T: Do you mean like puppets? That is, God uses His enemies like puppets? I read statements like the one you quoted and understand them to mean that God uses the things which these people do to further His means. For example, here's a statement that brings out the same purpose:

M: No, not like puppets. God works through the influence of His Holy Spirit to plant ideas and to motivate people to act them out.

t: God plants ideas in people to do evil? or, as long as God planted the idea it is not evil?