T: MM, are you familiar with chaos theory? Or quantum physics?

M:Yes. Why do you ask?

I believe all the laws of nature are totally dependent on God to function as they do. Again, the forces of nature would simply cease to do anything if God were to stop managing them. The laws and forces at work when nature causes death and destruction are completely dependent on God to function as they do. I suspect you completely disagree with this observation. If so, then it would seem you think certain laws and forces are able to act independent of God.

T: MM, I was the one who pointed out God's involvement in nature to you! (You had made statements making it sound like nature was self acting). Of course God is involved in nature. He has to manage it.

M: Given these insights, it is difficult to believe the forces of nature can act independently of God and cause death and destruction.

T: Sin has caused nature to act in ways it was not originally designed. For example, consider the vast oceans. Consider the extremes of temperature change, of moisture, etc.

T: King Neb attempted to use force and violence to motivate people to comply with his will. Stalin and Hitler resorted to similar tactics. God, however, has never employed force or violence to compel or coerce people to comply with His will. Would you agree with this statement?

M: I agree.

T: You say you agree, but you have God acting in ways that use force and violence to compel or coerce people to comply with His will. For example, the Egyptian plagues.

In the deliverance of Israel from Egypt, God plainly showed his distinguished mercy to his people, before all the Egyptians. God saw fit to execute his judgments upon Pharaoh that he might know by sad experience, since he would not otherwise be convinced, that his power was superior to all others. That his name might be declared throughout all the earth, he would give exemplary and demonstrative proof to all nations of his divine power and justice. It was the design of God that these exhibitions of his power should strengthen the faith of his people, and that their posterity should steadfastly worship him alone who had wrought such merciful wonders in their behalf. {3SG 242.2}

T: No, this is your idea. Or, rather, your idea of what I've said. I've not said this, or anything like this. What I've said is that God manages nature, that nature is not self-acting (and quoted the same quotes you later quoted back to me). The point is that if God withdraws from this work, bad things are liable to happen.

M: Are you suggesting you in no way believe God must work supernaturally to arbitrarily prevent the forces of nature from causing universal devastation and mass extinction?

T: I think that's a very odd way of putting things. It's hard to know exactly what it means. I would say that God manages nature, and if He withdraws His management, bad things are bound to happen.

M: If so, why do you think bad things are “liable” to happen if God were to stop managing the forces of nature?

T: To mention just one thing, the SOP brings out in "The Ministry of Healing" that God is involved in keeping the earth in its orbit. If God didn't do that, you can see that bad things would result, right?

M: Also, by using the word “liable” are you implying it is possible nothing bad might happen?

T: It would depend specifically on what God did not manage and what you mean by "bad".

EGW: It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.

M: Tom, it is true that when sinners fill their cup of woe and wrath that God sometimes withdraws His protection and gives them over to Satan to do with them as he pleases, that is, within the limits established and enforced by God. The quote you posted above is an excellent example.

T: This is neither my point nor what was stated here. My point was that what was stated is clearly not something limited in scope to an isolated event.

M: But God doesn't always work in this manner. There are times He takes matters into His own hands. The Flood is an example.

T: We've spoken of the flood. She speaks of how there were great quantities of water beneath the earth which were involved in the flood. Just a little thought suffices to see that this water must have been under tremendous pressure. Either God was holding back the pressure, or God knew when the pressure would break, and He warned the inhabitants of earth, through Noah, what was to happen. He warned them for 120 years. Now instead of water, the earth sits atop fire (molten lava) and God warns of the destruction of fire about to come.

T: Our interpretations of the SOP and Scripture are predicated by what we believe regarding God's character and the principles He operates by. My belief is that in order for us to properly understand the incidents in Scripture where God apparently acts violently or uses force to get His way, we need to understand Christ and the atonement. Jesus Christ revealed God, and without an understanding of that revelation, it seems to me impossible to get these incidents right.

Not true?
It seems to be true at least some of the time.

it seems to be more a matter of how one sees what is stated, how they understand it.

if i understand you correctly you are saying that God is the One pouring out death and destruction,

whereas others see "judgment" as a decision, not an act. i.e. "it is the judgment(decision) of this court...." an act can sometimes follow, but it is usually not the judge who carries it out.

I see no place in the Bible or the SOP where God is portrayed as using force or violence to get His way. Nor do I see a relative or rational connection between Jesus suffering and dying as our Substitute and Jesus executing justice and judgment.

Justice, honor, love, and truth are the attributes of God's throne. They are the principles of His government which is to be established on the earth, made pure by the fire of His retributive justice. These are the jewels to be sought after and cherished for time and for eternity. {TDG 350.4}

They were about to fill to overflowing their cup of iniquity. And soon it was to be poured upon their heads in retributive justice. Of this, Jesus warned them: {DA 618.3}

The cup of iniquity is nearly filled, and the retributive justice of God is about to descend upon the guilty. {4T 489.2} Those who rob God by withholding from His cause and from the suffering poor will meet His retributive justice. {4T 620.1} They do not sense the offensive character of sin or the retributive justice of God that will fall upon the sinner. {TSB 104.3}

The power that inflicted retributive justice upon man's substitute and surety, was the power that sustained and upheld the suffering One under the tremendous weight of wrath that would have fallen upon a sinful world. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law. It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. {5BC 1103}

The same angel who had left the royal courts of heaven to rescue Peter from the power of his persecutor, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. . . Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive justice of God. This demonstration of divine judgment had a mighty influence upon the people. {SR 299}

Then follows the story of the temptation and fall, and the punishment inflicted upon our erring parents. Their example is given us as a warning against disobedience, that we may be sure that the wages of sin is death, that God's retributive justice never fails, and that He exacts from His creatures a strict regard for His commandments. {4T 11.3}

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Evil men, rebuked by his example, will unite with them in seeking to separate him from God by alluring temptations. When these do not succeed, then a compelling power is employed to force the conscience. {GC 610.2}

As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honor the false sabbath, the people of every country on the globe will be led to follow her example. {6T 18}

The third message was to do its work; all were to be tested upon it, and the precious ones were to be called out from the religious bodies. A compelling power moved the honest, while the manifestation of the power of God brought a fear and restraint upon their unbelieving relatives and friends so that they dared not, neither had they the power to, hinder those who felt the work of the Spirit of God upon them. {EW 278.1}

Through the kindness and long-suffering of His messengers, the invitation becomes a compelling power to uplift those who are sunken in the lowest depths of sin. {GW 506.1}

They exhort us to take that Word as the man of our counsel, and the rule of our faith and practice. And with a compelling power, they entreat us to study long and diligently its pages, and become familiar with its teaching, for it is to judge us in the last day. {LS 470.2}

They must commence the work of reform and elevate their lives, so that in conversation and deportment their acts, their lives, will be a continual recommendation of their faith and will have such a winning, compelling power upon unbelievers that they will be compelled to acknowledge that they are the children of God. {OHC 230.5}

Let the young, devoted followers of Christ say, "The love of Christ constraineth me." Moving upon minds with the force of the grace of Christ, this love casts aside all hindrances and barriers, exerting upon souls a compelling influence that leads them to give themselves to God in unreserved consecration. {RY 49.1}

Through the grace of Christ I experienced a divine compelling power to stand before my ministering brethren, in the name of the Lord, hoping and praying that the Lord would open the blind eyes. {3SM 175.4}

When God moves upon the hearts of men to draw them to Christ, it seems that a compelling power comes over them, and they believe, and give themselves up to the influence of the Spirit of God. {TDG 52.3}

Time is so short and ministers of these last days are so few that they should throw all their energies into the work, and should be in close connection with God and holy angels, that a tremendous power may be in their preaching--a compelling power, to draw every soul who is honest and loves the truth right along to embrace it. {VSS 219.1}

The same angel who had left the royal courts of heaven to rescue Peter from the power of his persecutor, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; but it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, bringing mortal disease upon him. God poured contempt upon Herod's pride, and his person, which he had exhibited decked in shining apparel before the admiring gaze of the people, was eaten by worms, and putrefied while yet alive. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive justice of God. {SR 299.2}

T: MM, I was the one who pointed out God's involvement in nature to you! (You had made statements making it sound like nature was self acting). Of course God is involved in nature. He has to manage it.

MM:I'm glad you straightened me out. Thank you. I learn a lot studying with you.

T: Sin has caused nature to act in ways it was not originally designed. For example, consider the vast oceans. Consider the extremes of temperature change, of moisture, etc.

M:I thought you just said God is the one who manages the forces of nature. Are you suggesting sin causes the forces of nature to cause natural disasters?

M:I do not see God using force or violence to compel or coerce Pharaoh in this passage. Do you?

It amazes me that anyone can read statements like this one and conclude God permitted evil angels to cause the death and destruction that plagued Egypt on ten different occasions.

God has exercised through His angels over the children of men in their travels, in their own houses, in their eating and drinking. Wherever they are, His eye is upon them. They are preserved from a thousand dangers, all to them unseen.(14 MR 2)